SPN thoughts

[retro_eidas]

• Wow. That was quite bloody.
  
  
• Although, Dean honey, even the Ghost Hunters are wise enough to NOT go traipsing around scary places alone or at least tell someone where they're going. Ah yes, let's go exploring the subterranean dirt hole with no back-up.
  
  
• However, I did love the angel window as his salvation. Cas saving him even if it's only symbolically!
  
  
• Amazing! John Winchester has been dead for two seasons and he still manages to prove what a rat bastard of a father he was. He can take that kid to a baseball game but can't even call Dean back in "Home" or when Dean was dying in "Faith"? Right. I have to wonder if that kid might have actually lived too had John simply stayed away from him instead of storming into town playing loving daddy and while there started killing, thus pissing off, the local supernatural nasties. Making Adam and his mother instant targets and only with John's part-time protection. Well done dbag, well done. Oh, btw...
  
  
• No Sammy, I do not think Dean comparing you to John was a compliment. At all. And holy Jesus, Dean is right with that comparison too. Sam has always been very much like John (Dean also said as much in "Devil's Trap", but "Mystery Spot" proved it as well). Sammy was flipping scary tonight.
  
  
• Also glad to see all that Ruby-vampiring to make Sam SuperSammy is really coming into use with more than just demons.... oh wait. The writers were even rubbing it in our faces, with the ghouls mentioning Sam's blood "tastes different". Yes, that would be the juiced-up demon blood that's apparently NO USE AT ALL in a situation not involving demons. Y'all realize Lilith hired herself up some ghouls (or shapeshifters or vampires or whatever supernatural nasties hiring... or hell, some greedy, ne'er-do-well humans) and got the jump on Sam, he'd apparently be little use to stop them.
  
  
• "[Adam's] in a better place" He forgot that conversation with Tessa already, did he? It wasn't *that* many eps ago, Dean. Is that indicative of Dean still lying to himself or realizes it's a lie but would rather cling to the pretty words than even think of going down that Deal For Your Soul To Save A Brother road again (for one brief second there I thought that was what Sam was about to suggest and was ready for a rant until he mentioned Cas).

ETA. I'm also left baffled why we needed an ep that essentially boiled down to whatever remained of Dean's John Hero Worship about totally smashed to pieces and Sammy being a lot like John (which we already knew, but Sam seems to have embraced with an all new fervor). What relevance could this have so near the end of the season, to the finale?

Comments

[amaresu]

I'm a bit worried that the boys are going to part ways. They've been fracturing all season, something I think Dean realizes more than Sam. And Dean didn't mean it as a compliment to compare Sam and John like that. I don't know. I find that it would make sense for the season to end with the boys going their separate ways.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit worried that the boys are going to part ways. They've been fracturing all season, something I think Dean realizes more than Sam.

ITA on that. I think Sam needs Dean a lot more than Dean needs Sam at this point. Dean nearly left him twice this season already. It wouldn't shock me in the least either/or runs off on the other. My guess Sam runs first, but when he gets back expects things to go back the way they were, only for Dean to not have any of it and leave him. I don't know if you're aware of the upcoming ep titles so I'll spoiler, but seriously, 4.21? "When the Levee Breaks"? I'd consider that some foreshadowing. Probably used that one as "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You" would have been a little too obvious.

And Dean didn't mean it as a compliment to compare Sam and John like that.

Oh hell no. Not in an ep that pretty much took a hard side-swipe at John's integrity and one of his past hunts and secrets, once again, coming back to haunt them. Again, like you were saying above, I think Dean has a greater awareness of this as well and it blew right over Sam's head.

[amaresu]

I've seen the episode titles and they intrigued me. I wonder if Dean's gonna find out about the demon blood drinking? I think that would be a big breaking point for him.

It's so weird to think of Dean being the one to leave Sam, but it's gotten to the point where I can see it. I'm thinking that Dean has lost a lot of his, I don't wanna say delusious, but maybe his idiolization?, of his family this season. He's been broken in the worst ways possible and the one person he thought he could count on hasn't really come through for him.

If Sam does leave I think he'll be in for a big surprise when he comes back. Dean isn't going to put up with him forever. He has other people besides Sam now, at least I think he's finally realizing that he does. Dean gave up everything for Sam once and I don't think he'll do so again.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I've seen the episode titles and they intrigued me. I wonder if Dean's gonna find out about the demon blood drinking?

I don't know how he can't find out about it. They were practically clanging the anvils the last few eps how Sam is *terrified* Dean will find out about it. So, what happens? Dean finds out about it. Just like he did the mind-exorcising and Sam's BFF Ruby.

I don't wanna say delusious, but maybe his idiolization?, of his family this season. He's been broken in the worst ways possible and the one person he thought he could count on hasn't really come through for him.

From ITB finding out his *mother* wasn't only a hunter, but where the first deal started and the family curse basically began. I consider JtS a bookend to that ep. Then obviously Sam's whole arc this season. I don't want to say Dean's growing up, but in a lot of ways Dean's psychological growth was seriously stunted due to the life he's led from a very early age. It's like the whole season has functioned to systematically take down that pedestal - or idolization, like you said - of his family..... but to what ends? Dean live a healthier life? Unfortunately, I doubt that's the case considering I did consider Tessa's warning - about what the angels had in store for him - not being something very pleasant at all. Not just counting OTHOAP and the torturing by angels' "request" either.

If Sam does leave I think he'll be in for a big surprise when he comes back. Dean isn't going to put up with him forever.

Sam's gotten way too spoiled and complacent of Dean's presence through the years and I truly think he's been taking that for granted particularly this season. I think Sam is going to finally feel the consequences of that before the very end of the season, maybe a little into S5 too.

[amaresu]

Then obviously Sam's whole arc this season.

I can't decide if they're going to make Sam go completely dark side or not with this arc. It still seems like he might go towards redemption.

And what the hell is up with Ruby? I wanna believe that she's on the side of good, if going about it badly, but I don't think Supernatural is gonna go that route.

It's like the whole season has functioned to systematically take down that pedestal - or idolization, like you said - of his family..... but to what ends?

I think that alot of Dean's arc this season has been about him finding faith. More specifically faith in something besides his family. His faith in John has been slowly being deconstructed over the course of the show, JtS being the final nail in that coffin I think, and Sam's been doing his damnedest to destroy Dean's faith in him this season.

Then we have Castiel who's been trying to get Dean to have faith in God all season. I think in order for Dean to have faith in God, or even just Castiel, he needs to lose his faith in his family. He needs to be torn down before he can be built back up. And really at this point I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing. Dean needs to have faith in something and it's become increasingly clear that what he's had faith in doesn't really deserve it.

I'm not sure that what's going to happen, particularly in the next few episodes, is going to be anything near good for him, but it seems to be what they've been building up to. Sam leaving him could be the final straw there.

Sam's gotten way too spoiled and complacent of Dean's presence through the years and I truly think he's been taking that for granted particularly this season.

Without a doubt. I wouldn't be surprised if Sam offers some sort of ultimatum, or says something along the lines of what he said during S&V and BOOM. I don't know, it'll be interesting to see how Sam really screws this up, because I really think it'll be Sam.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I can't decide if they're going to make Sam go completely dark side or not with this arc. It still seems like he might go towards redemption.

I, for one, don't think they'll go all the way dark with Sam. I don't think they're quite done with how far they're pushing him out of the reservation yet, but I still strongly suspect he's going to have a "Oh God!! What Have I Done?!" moment before the season is over. Probably almost near the end of 4.22. Then S5 they'll slowly have Dean and Sam fixing their relationship.

And what the hell is up with Ruby? I wanna believe that she's on the side of good, if going about it badly, but I don't think Supernatural is gonna go that route.

I don't know, but with that evil-looking smirk in OTHOAP while Sam was suckling her arm? I think the girl is on the express train to villain town.

Then we have Castiel who's been trying to get Dean to have faith in God all season. I think in order for Dean to have faith in God, or even just Castiel, he needs to lose his faith in his family.

I can see that and it makes sense. It would be an explanation for Misha's considerable presence next season. I'm already very curious on how Cas' increased presence in their lives will affect Sam. Probably not too well, despite my belief Sam is going to be in the doghouse with Dean come S5.

[amaresu]

but I still strongly suspect he's going to have a "Oh God!! What Have I Done?!" moment before the season is over.

Possibly due to his incredible arrogance this season? I think maybe he'll go too far with his mind powers and maybe even hurt Dean. Or cause Lucifer to rise. Something along those lines.

I think the girl is on the express train to villain town.

That would suck. But I'm really just tired of the lack of reoccurring non-evil female characters. I'll accept Ruby being evil if I can have Ellen or Jo back.

[julorean.livejournal.com]

Indeed. and this: I have to wonder if that kid might have actually lived too had John simply stayed away from him instead of storming into town playing loving daddy is the whole reason the whole premise was unbelievable. What John *really* would have done is warned them away and have nothing to do with them. He'd say he was a criminal or something. It's technically true. XP Then maybe the ghouls wouldn't have targeted them. The kid could've been anybody's.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I'm just trying to figure out what this means now regarding the bigger picture. Taking such a hard swipe at John (and the dynamics we see in Dean and Sam's rel'p in that ep) really has to factor with whatever is going to happen in the finale. John has been dead for two seasons and they suddenly decide to do this?

You know my speculations on where I think Dean's arc is going, I suppose I do think it's interesting they've readdressed his daddy issues in such a jarring, blatant way so near the end of this season. They did it in 4.10 too, but not like this. Also straight-up confirmation in canon that Sam is essentially John 2.0. Which isn't necessarily news, but they seemed to go to great pains to make that comparison in this ep. Sam was frickin' fanatical.

[julorean.livejournal.com]

re: John. I think the writers are just on crack/hate John for no reason. I don't believe he'd be such a bad father.

I dunno about Sam being John. That's what they want us to think, but personally, he's acting quite a bit like Gordon too. Obssessed to the point of excluding everything.

I do wish your speculations were true. But me being a spoiler whore...well, just tell me if you wanna know.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I'm certain I know everything you know (everything at TWOP), but you can white out the spoilers if you want to. <*font color="white">TEXT HERE<*/font> Just take the asterisks out.

I still consider the spec possible, despite the [ ] spoilers.

[julorean.livejournal.com]

lol, it would be so awesome if Lucifer possessed Dean with no one knowing, and somehow was doing stuff behind the scenes. We only get small clues until BAM! it's revealed like midway through the season. He has some abilities, but everyone thinks it's just the powers Anna gave him. And this is based on another speculation post I read: But now that Dean knows about him, he knows the same stuff, and they can use that to fight Lucy's evil plots.

But srsly, the show as it is just makes no sense to me anymore. Sam's hemophagia? srsly? so disgusting and nonsensical. I hope Ruby's controlling him somehow, drew him down into addiction, it's the only way I could forgive him.

[eido.livejournal.com]

it would be so awesome if Lucifer possessed Dean with no one knowing, and somehow was doing stuff behind the scenes.

I know!! I'd love that! Except I still don't see it as possession, but like another Anna situation. If Dean is Lucifer, I think he was always Lucifer, just in human form. Dean's alter-ego doing things not only behind-the-scenes, but that Dean himself is *totally* unaware of. Lucifer sort of like Dean's Id. Perhaps there's already foreshadowing for it in DALDOM? With Dream!Dean arguing with black-eyed DemonDream!Dean? Dean arguing and struggling with another part of himself? Which, in itself, was very "Fight Club".

I think "Sex & Violence" was also essentially one big shout-out to "Fight Club". Dean and Sam being almost like two halves of a whole. Not to take away from Sam's own character arc, but it's possible Sam's arc descending into chaos could be an outward representation of Dean's internal, chaotic other half / alter-ego (of which he's currently unaware / that's sealed by 600 seals waiting to be unleashed?).

We only get small clues until BAM! it's revealed like midway through the season.

I mean, that's how stories like that usually go, isn't it? Like Ed Norton's character in FC or Harry Angel's in "Angel Heart". They had no clue whatsoever what they really were until near the very end of their stories.

And this is based on another speculation post I read: But now that Dean knows about him, he knows the same stuff, and they can use that to fight Lucy's evil plots.

If you don't mind me asking what other speculation post? Also, that's all IF Lucy's evil. I think it's still possible he could be the Grover (the monster not as bad as Grover or the audience thinks) or like a Tyler Durden. Capable of doing very bad things, but still essentially more an anarchist then an epitome of evil. In the Old Testament versions of Satan, that's more what he was. A trickster or an anarchist rather than pure evil (it was with this trickster Satan that God made the wager about Job and his faith).

Like Dean's alter-ego is out there, fighting or just being a pain in the ass of those nasty, human-hating angels (the true enemies of S5?) while Sam and Cas are asleep. Since angels seem to be able to travel instantaneously (and, as per Angel!Anna, have capabilities of hiding themselves, the witch in 4.07 could do that too), it could totally work. Lucifer being Batman, Tyler or V by night and by day he's Dean Winchester trying to fight, alongside Sam & Cas, the demonic problems caused as a result of whatever fallout from the S4 finale. With Dean, like Ed Norton's character in FC or Harry Angel, coming to the slow realization what he really is as Lucifer and Dean get closer and closer to totally merging? Dude, that would kick so much ass! ;)

I hope Ruby's controlling him somehow, drew him down into addiction, it's the only way I could forgive him.

That is the only way it really makes sense to me. After all, Sam was always supposedly destined to be stronger than Lilith, presumably that would have made him a whole lot stronger than Azazel too. Why would Azazel make a creature so much stronger than him that could so easily turn on him? He most likely had a failsafe of some kind so such a creature would stay under his control, loyal or subservient. I'm guessing it's in the blood and Ruby knows about it (more understandable if she does turn out to be Meg). Some sort of demonic magic slavery akin to what the Siren's venom did to it's victims.

[julorean.livejournal.com]

Oh, that would be so sexy. If only Kripke were this creative. This is the most awesome idea ever.

Oh, the other post was another Lucifer!Dean speculation meta I found, it was also quite appealing. http://tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com/160620.html

I'm rather disapponting, the writers usually do well twisting other myths, but for this one they go for such a traditional interpretation. At this point, I want Lucifer to win, cuz the angels are such dumbasses!

Very good point on Ruby and Sam's powers. That makes so much sense. And I just had a thought: why aren't the angels torturing Ruby for info? She seems to know stuff. I hear there was a cut scene where the angels say she has some role to play, but I'm not counting that as canon. That's total BS. It makes no sense, and they're just putting random crap in there so they don't have to do the sensible thing.

You have fricking awesome ideas. I dunno if I can do it justice, but I wanna make a fic out of it. I started one during the long fall hiatus, but didn't get far (work and school and all that). I'll try it again this summer, if you don't mind me using some of your ideas and speculation. :) Hey, maybe you could just copy and paste our discussions on your journal into a word doc and e-mail it to me so I have all the ideas on one place? Or we can discuss it together over e-mail to hammer out a coherent outline. :)

[eido.livejournal.com]

I'm rather disapponting, the writers usually do well twisting other myths, but for this one they go for such a traditional interpretation.

I'm not entirely convinced they'll go for the traditional interpretation, not yet anyway. Of course, I could be eating those words come the finale and Lucifer is just another Azazel or Lilith. However, I only hold out judgment on Lucifer because some of the work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_(TV_series)) Kripke has taken inspiration in creating SPN (where Lucifer or a Lucifer metaphor appears), Lucifer isn't always depicted so traditionally.

SPN also does take a heavy influence from Westerns. Dean and Sam are essentially like outlaws, but leaning towards the Robin Hood sort. They lie, cheat and steal, but do so to "save people, hunt things", support the "family business". Western heroes are often men who have dubious reputations (lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc), they can be very unpleasant, but still be considered heroes (even if only in a technical sense). Compare the main character in "Unforgiven" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105695/), Bill Munny, with Dean, you do see a whole lot of similarities, even nearly the same dialogue sometimes. Bill could be, in many ways, a Lucifer or Satanic metaphor, but again, not a very traditional one. The Drifter in "High Plains Drifter" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068699/) is an even more blatant Satanic metaphor (goes as far as demanding the town he's protecting painted red and renamed "Hell"), he's a total bastard, yet he basically does save the town from a bunch of thugs.

Hell, the music itself that's featured in SPN (and Kripke seems to be a huge fan) - from Black Sabbath (http://lyricwiki.org/Black_Sabbath:N.I.B.), AC/DC (http://lyricwiki.org/AC/DC:Highway_To_Hell), Bob Seger (http://lyricwiki.org/Bob_Seger:Lucifer) and the list goes on - isn't exactly condemning Lucifer in a fire and brimstone, Church-going sense. Jimmy Page from Led Zeppelin was actually a big Aleister Crowley fan (at one point, owning a house Crowley once owned). Zepp's famous logo, Icarus falling from the sky (http://makmo.info/herald/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/swan-song-led-zeppelin-poster1.jpg) (although the original painting they took it from, it was Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rimmer)), looks like a fallen angel.

I just had a thought: why aren't the angels torturing Ruby for info? She seems to know stuff. I hear there was a cut scene where the angels say she has some role to play, but I'm not counting that as canon. That's total BS.

I don't know if I'd call it BS yet. After all, Judas had his own role to play, even if it was helping get Christ crucified. We also know there are some angels around that actually want Lucifer to rise and possibly some amongst Castiel's superiors. Ruby could still be evil, but the same angels that ordered off Uriel from killing Ruby may believe Ruby has "a role to play" in Lucifer rising.

You have fricking awesome ideas. I dunno if I can do it justice, but I wanna make a fic out of it.

I'm not much for writing fanfic myself, but if you want to take a crack at it. Go right ahead. ;)

[julorean.livejournal.com]

All very good points. I *may* just return to watching (if they stop with the character butchering...). And Judas!Ruby. That certainly fits.

I won't watch the rest of the season tho, Sam's hemophagua us simply too disgusting, and I can't deal with the emotional abuse anymore, driving myself nuts over what might happen next week.

I just had a thought: maybe even the angels that aren't all for Lucifer know they can't stop it. Srsly, no logical person would set 600 or w/e seal and have him free to rise after breaking only 66. Not even if the first one was damned hard to break. The whole thing is some sorta test for Dean, and maybe Sam too. And if there is a bit of an Apocalypse - eh, those little mud-monkeys are adaptable, they'll survive.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I just had a thought: maybe even the angels that aren't all for Lucifer know they can't stop it... And if there is a bit of an Apocalypse - eh, those little mud-monkeys are adaptable, they'll survive.

Thus why the angels are such scary dicks, but then some of them were always capable of killing all first-born children in Egypt and killing a third of the fish in the sea. How they can handwave the devastation of an Apocalpyse either just because or it's necessary... that's incomprehensibly terrifying.

There's a reason why Tyler ends up dead at the end of "Fight Club". He's an out-of-control sociopathic, chaotic manifestation of the Narrator's mental illness. It's crazy on top of crazy. Yet at the same time, Tyler's "mayhem", although was necessary to break the Narrator's life out of the conformist, depressing rut it had been in, was ultimately just another form of conformity. Essentially becomes all too similar to what it was rebelling against even if by way of vigilantism.

You get the impression from Anna that angel society (almost like the FC Narrator's life) is almost Orwellian in it's rigidity. Anna - possibly like Lucifer - could be another Tyler and although chaos might initially be deserved for an "Ikea-obsessed", Orwellian angel society, it can all too easily turn into something nothing short of apocalyptic. That could be why Anna has a death sentence over her head. The angels that like how the society is now, of course they'd want her stopped. However, other angels may realize if angel society collapses, humanity could become extremely vulnerable. However, why is she still alive if these differing groups of angels are against her? Possibly because other angels think, like you say, "if there is a bit of an Apocalypse - eh, those little mud-monkeys are adaptable, they'll survive." For the same reason they might have left Ruby alive. Maybe humanity - and possibly the angels themselves - are in for one big brutal cleansing by way of an Apocalypse and Anna is (possibly knowingly and for dangerously self-absorbed reasons. Maybe getting back at them or "changing" how angels are) one of the harbingers of it?

The angels might be dicks, but they're also all humanity really has right now fighting in their corner. It's possible some demons could join up on the Dean & Sam human side, probably out of self-preservation, but I also don't see them having anything good planned for humanity either.

[julorean.livejournal.com]

Yep. Terrifying and completely plausible. Oh, Cas certainly wouldn't like it, but the higher-ups? Certainly wouldn't care so much.

Heh. Neither side is all that good. I'd join the third side: the Winchesters. They'd say a big fuck-you to both angels and demons and save the world anyway.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

I was left feeling depressed and ultimately wanting to ignore the episode's canon. The kid who played Adam was too doofy, to the point of irritation. Like, sitting there with his mouth open, "Duuuuh," doofy. Didn't like him.

However, I liked the episode simply for the conflict and how it unfolded, and how excited I was watching Dean figure it out. But I would have preferred that if it was going to end that way that Adam not really be their brother. There really wasn't a happy way this ep could end if it was going to turn out that way. If they had done this sometime early in the first season, then there would have been more options. But this late in the game? It the end, it seemed pointless.

John is just the most selfish dick, and I'm sick of him being treated as the greatest hero ever. I understand that he's saved many people and once was a likeable guy, but after Mary died, he just lost any sense he had. How could he spend dad time with this kid and ignore Dean on his birthdays? How could he allow himself the luxury of a normal vacation, taking Adam to baseball games and shit, while his oldest was "home" taking care of Sam when he was FAR too young to be "the parent"? I wouldn't leave a 12-year-old alone overnight, and he left Dean AND Sam alone for DAYS and WEEKS when they were that young? It's sickening. Does this mean he never did dad stuff with Dean and Sam?

It's weird, because often when I write fanfic featuring John, he's a mixture of hero and asshole father, which is pretty much what he was, I suppose. Dean and Sam wouldn't have loved him so much if he hadn't been good to them *sometime.* Or do they love him simply because he was all they had?

It really makes me wonder if John truly had no one he could leave the boys with if he was going to go running around the country losing his mind after Mary's death.

Overall, I do love a lot of what they've done this season, but they need to put the hope back in this show. There's been too much doom and gloom lately. At least in the past, there was the brother love to fall back on when things got bad. This season, it's Dean vs Sam, which I've never understood the appeal of.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I liked the episode simply for the conflict and how it unfolded, and how excited I was watching Dean figure it out.

The ep was ok overall, with some choice moments. The horror on his face when he realized that Sam was with fake!Adam? That was some quality tv right there.

It the end, it seemed pointless.

About the only things I could pinpoint being relevant, at least for the denouement of this season, was the boys re-examining their rel'ps with John and how that effects the current dynamics of their own rel'p. Oh and yet another reminder how very delusional Sam is nowadays. Ugh, that *wasn't* a complement Sam.

John is just the most selfish dick, and I'm sick of him being treated as the greatest hero ever.

It makes me really wonder about those God = John parallels from earlier in the season and if they're still relevant at this point.

How could he allow himself the luxury of a normal vacation, taking Adam to baseball games and shit, while his oldest was "home" taking care of Sam when he was FAR too young to be "the parent"?

I share your sentiment about being appalled by the whole situation. I'm still baffled why John would even lay claim to Adam as his own. Surely it would have been *far* safer for the kid had he stayed the hell away?

Dean and Sam wouldn't have loved him so much if he hadn't been good to them *sometime.* Or do they love him simply because he was all they had?

Could be just as much the ideal of their father they worshiped/loved possibly more than the man he actually was. I think Dean has been gradually coming to terms with the sort of life he had and the man John was, but Sam seems to be going backward. Instead of adopting a more realistic view of John, Sam has clung harder and harder to the ideal, even to the point justifying what he's doing now and Sam is clearly on the *wrong* path.

It really makes me wonder if John truly had no one he could leave the boys with if he was going to go running around the country losing his mind after Mary's death.

Their canonicity is dubious, but in the comics he does leave the boys with relatives from time to time, but one of those times one of the relatives was possessed by a demon nearly killing Dean and taking away Sam. From the warning he gave Dean in IMTOD? John did seem to be aware, more than he seemed willing to tell Dean back then, that there was something wrong with Sam. Depending on when he found out, that probably would have compelled him to keep Sam and Dean close by... until Sam rebelled and ran off to Stanford.

Overall, I do love a lot of what they've done this season, but they need to put the hope back in this show.

Unless they give us the Hamlet ending, I do strongly suspect that will be next season's arc. Dean and Sam slowly mending their rel'p. Castiel probably a key to that.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

>>About the only things I could pinpoint being relevant, at least for the denouement of this season, was the boys re-examining their rel'ps with John and how that effects the current dynamics of their own rel'p.

That's true. But I think they could have accomplished that with Adam turning out to be a complete trick, and not their real brother. Except that with Adam being real and John's kid, it solidified more for Dean that his dad could be a really perplexing jerk of a father, which it seemed he had figured out already.

>>I'm still baffled why John would even lay claim to Adam as his own. Surely it would have been *far* safer for the kid had he stayed the hell away?

I think it was purely ego and longing for the normal life he had with Mary. He's MY son, I get something out of him loving me, I can play house with him and his mother and pretend she's Mary because she has blonde hair like her. On the surface, John knows she's not Mary, but deep down, maybe she reminds him of her, and he likes how it makes him feel to pretend he had a normal life with her just for a little while. I can understand why he would feel that way, but that doesn't mean it's right for him to act on those desires, especially not the way he handled it.

>>I think Dean has been gradually coming to terms with the sort of life he had and the man John was, but Sam seems to be going backward.

Sam definitely switched gears after John died, and I think that's because he fought with John so much and then spent four years away from him, and not so long after that, John is killed. Sam felt guilty. His way of dealing with that guilt was to put John on a pedastal. He doesn't realize that when Dean said he was just like John, Dean wasn't really referring to John's best points.