SPN thoughts
Apr. 23rd, 2009 10:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
retro_eidas- Wow. That was quite bloody.
- Although, Dean honey, even the Ghost Hunters are wise enough to NOT go traipsing around scary places alone or at least tell someone where they're going. Ah yes, let's go exploring the subterranean dirt hole with no back-up.
- However, I did love the angel window as his salvation. Cas saving him even if it's only symbolically!
- Amazing! John Winchester has been dead for two seasons and he still manages to prove what a rat bastard of a father he was. He can take that kid to a baseball game but can't even call Dean back in "Home" or when Dean was dying in "Faith"? Right. I have to wonder if that kid might have actually lived too had John simply stayed away from him instead of storming into town playing loving daddy and while there started killing, thus pissing off, the local supernatural nasties. Making Adam and his mother instant targets and only with John's part-time protection. Well done dbag, well done. Oh, btw...
- No Sammy, I do not think Dean comparing you to John was a compliment. At all. And holy Jesus, Dean is right with that comparison too. Sam has always been very much like John (Dean also said as much in "Devil's Trap", but "Mystery Spot" proved it as well). Sammy was flipping scary tonight.
- Also glad to see all that Ruby-vampiring to make Sam SuperSammy is really coming into use with more than just demons.... oh wait. The writers were even rubbing it in our faces, with the ghouls mentioning Sam's blood "tastes different". Yes, that would be the juiced-up demon blood that's apparently NO USE AT ALL in a situation not involving demons. Y'all realize Lilith hired herself up some ghouls (or shapeshifters or vampires or whatever supernatural nasties hiring... or hell, some greedy, ne'er-do-well humans) and got the jump on Sam, he'd apparently be little use to stop them.
- "[Adam's] in a better place" He forgot that conversation with Tessa already, did he? It wasn't *that* many eps ago, Dean. Is that indicative of Dean still lying to himself or realizes it's a lie but would rather cling to the pretty words than even think of going down that Deal For Your Soul To Save A Brother road again (for one brief second there I thought that was what Sam was about to suggest and was ready for a rant until he mentioned Cas).
ETA. I'm also left baffled why we needed an ep that essentially boiled down to whatever remained of Dean's John Hero Worship about totally smashed to pieces and Sammy being a lot like John (which we already knew, but Sam seems to have embraced with an all new fervor). What relevance could this have so near the end of the season, to the finale?
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Date: 2009-04-25 04:47 pm (UTC)I know!! I'd love that! Except I still don't see it as possession, but like another Anna situation. If Dean is Lucifer, I think he was always Lucifer, just in human form. Dean's alter-ego doing things not only behind-the-scenes, but that Dean himself is *totally* unaware of. Lucifer sort of like Dean's Id. Perhaps there's already foreshadowing for it in DALDOM? With Dream!Dean arguing with black-eyed DemonDream!Dean? Dean arguing and struggling with another part of himself? Which, in itself, was very "Fight Club".
I think "Sex & Violence" was also essentially one big shout-out to "Fight Club". Dean and Sam being almost like two halves of a whole. Not to take away from Sam's own character arc, but it's possible Sam's arc descending into chaos could be an outward representation of Dean's internal, chaotic other half / alter-ego (of which he's currently unaware / that's sealed by 600 seals waiting to be unleashed?).
We only get small clues until BAM! it's revealed like midway through the season.
I mean, that's how stories like that usually go, isn't it? Like Ed Norton's character in FC or Harry Angel's in "Angel Heart". They had no clue whatsoever what they really were until near the very end of their stories.
And this is based on another speculation post I read: But now that Dean knows about him, he knows the same stuff, and they can use that to fight Lucy's evil plots.
If you don't mind me asking what other speculation post? Also, that's all IF Lucy's evil. I think it's still possible he could be the Grover (the monster not as bad as Grover or the audience thinks) or like a Tyler Durden. Capable of doing very bad things, but still essentially more an anarchist then an epitome of evil. In the Old Testament versions of Satan, that's more what he was. A trickster or an anarchist rather than pure evil (it was with this trickster Satan that God made the wager about Job and his faith).
Like Dean's alter-ego is out there, fighting or just being a pain in the ass of those nasty, human-hating angels (the true enemies of S5?) while Sam and Cas are asleep. Since angels seem to be able to travel instantaneously (and, as per Angel!Anna, have capabilities of hiding themselves, the witch in 4.07 could do that too), it could totally work. Lucifer being Batman, Tyler or V by night and by day he's Dean Winchester trying to fight, alongside Sam & Cas, the demonic problems caused as a result of whatever fallout from the S4 finale. With Dean, like Ed Norton's character in FC or Harry Angel, coming to the slow realization what he really is as Lucifer and Dean get closer and closer to totally merging? Dude, that would kick so much ass! ;)
I hope Ruby's controlling him somehow, drew him down into addiction, it's the only way I could forgive him.
That is the only way it really makes sense to me. After all, Sam was always supposedly destined to be stronger than Lilith, presumably that would have made him a whole lot stronger than Azazel too. Why would Azazel make a creature so much stronger than him that could so easily turn on him? He most likely had a failsafe of some kind so such a creature would stay under his control, loyal or subservient. I'm guessing it's in the blood and Ruby knows about it (more understandable if she does turn out to be Meg). Some sort of demonic magic slavery akin to what the Siren's venom did to it's victims.
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Date: 2009-04-25 06:12 pm (UTC)Oh, the other post was another Lucifer!Dean speculation meta I found, it was also quite appealing. http://tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com/160620.html
I'm rather disapponting, the writers usually do well twisting other myths, but for this one they go for such a traditional interpretation. At this point, I want Lucifer to win, cuz the angels are such dumbasses!
Very good point on Ruby and Sam's powers. That makes so much sense. And I just had a thought: why aren't the angels torturing Ruby for info? She seems to know stuff. I hear there was a cut scene where the angels say she has some role to play, but I'm not counting that as canon. That's total BS. It makes no sense, and they're just putting random crap in there so they don't have to do the sensible thing.
You have fricking awesome ideas. I dunno if I can do it justice, but I wanna make a fic out of it. I started one during the long fall hiatus, but didn't get far (work and school and all that). I'll try it again this summer, if you don't mind me using some of your ideas and speculation. :) Hey, maybe you could just copy and paste our discussions on your journal into a word doc and e-mail it to me so I have all the ideas on one place? Or we can discuss it together over e-mail to hammer out a coherent outline. :)
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Date: 2009-04-25 08:10 pm (UTC)I'm not entirely convinced they'll go for the traditional interpretation, not yet anyway. Of course, I could be eating those words come the finale and Lucifer is just another Azazel or Lilith. However, I only hold out judgment on Lucifer because some of the work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_(TV_series)) Kripke has taken inspiration in creating SPN (where Lucifer or a Lucifer metaphor appears), Lucifer isn't always depicted so traditionally.
SPN also does take a heavy influence from Westerns. Dean and Sam are essentially like outlaws, but leaning towards the Robin Hood sort. They lie, cheat and steal, but do so to "save people, hunt things", support the "family business". Western heroes are often men who have dubious reputations (lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc), they can be very unpleasant, but still be considered heroes (even if only in a technical sense). Compare the main character in "Unforgiven" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105695/), Bill Munny, with Dean, you do see a whole lot of similarities, even nearly the same dialogue sometimes. Bill could be, in many ways, a Lucifer or Satanic metaphor, but again, not a very traditional one. The Drifter in "High Plains Drifter" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068699/) is an even more blatant Satanic metaphor (goes as far as demanding the town he's protecting painted red and renamed "Hell"), he's a total bastard, yet he basically does save the town from a bunch of thugs.
Hell, the music itself that's featured in SPN (and Kripke seems to be a huge fan) - from Black Sabbath (http://lyricwiki.org/Black_Sabbath:N.I.B.), AC/DC (http://lyricwiki.org/AC/DC:Highway_To_Hell), Bob Seger (http://lyricwiki.org/Bob_Seger:Lucifer) and the list goes on - isn't exactly condemning Lucifer in a fire and brimstone, Church-going sense. Jimmy Page from Led Zeppelin was actually a big Aleister Crowley fan (at one point, owning a house Crowley once owned). Zepp's famous logo, Icarus falling from the sky (http://makmo.info/herald/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/swan-song-led-zeppelin-poster1.jpg) (although the original painting they took it from, it was Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rimmer)), looks like a fallen angel.
I just had a thought: why aren't the angels torturing Ruby for info? She seems to know stuff. I hear there was a cut scene where the angels say she has some role to play, but I'm not counting that as canon. That's total BS.
I don't know if I'd call it BS yet. After all, Judas had his own role to play, even if it was helping get Christ crucified. We also know there are some angels around that actually want Lucifer to rise and possibly some amongst Castiel's superiors. Ruby could still be evil, but the same angels that ordered off Uriel from killing Ruby may believe Ruby has "a role to play" in Lucifer rising.
You have fricking awesome ideas. I dunno if I can do it justice, but I wanna make a fic out of it.
I'm not much for writing fanfic myself, but if you want to take a crack at it. Go right ahead. ;)
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Date: 2009-04-26 12:46 am (UTC)I won't watch the rest of the season tho, Sam's hemophagua us simply too disgusting, and I can't deal with the emotional abuse anymore, driving myself nuts over what might happen next week.
I just had a thought: maybe even the angels that aren't all for Lucifer know they can't stop it. Srsly, no logical person would set 600 or w/e seal and have him free to rise after breaking only 66. Not even if the first one was damned hard to break. The whole thing is some sorta test for Dean, and maybe Sam too. And if there is a bit of an Apocalypse - eh, those little mud-monkeys are adaptable, they'll survive.
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Date: 2009-04-26 04:59 pm (UTC)Thus why the angels are such scary dicks, but then some of them were always capable of killing all first-born children in Egypt and killing a third of the fish in the sea. How they can handwave the devastation of an Apocalpyse either just because or it's necessary... that's incomprehensibly terrifying.
There's a reason why Tyler ends up dead at the end of "Fight Club". He's an out-of-control sociopathic, chaotic manifestation of the Narrator's mental illness. It's crazy on top of crazy. Yet at the same time, Tyler's "mayhem", although was necessary to break the Narrator's life out of the conformist, depressing rut it had been in, was ultimately just another form of conformity. Essentially becomes all too similar to what it was rebelling against even if by way of vigilantism.
You get the impression from Anna that angel society (almost like the FC Narrator's life) is almost Orwellian in it's rigidity. Anna - possibly like Lucifer - could be another Tyler and although chaos might initially be deserved for an "Ikea-obsessed", Orwellian angel society, it can all too easily turn into something nothing short of apocalyptic. That could be why Anna has a death sentence over her head. The angels that like how the society is now, of course they'd want her stopped. However, other angels may realize if angel society collapses, humanity could become extremely vulnerable. However, why is she still alive if these differing groups of angels are against her? Possibly because other angels think, like you say, "if there is a bit of an Apocalypse - eh, those little mud-monkeys are adaptable, they'll survive." For the same reason they might have left Ruby alive. Maybe humanity - and possibly the angels themselves - are in for one big brutal cleansing by way of an Apocalypse and Anna is (possibly knowingly and for dangerously self-absorbed reasons. Maybe getting back at them or "changing" how angels are) one of the harbingers of it?
The angels might be dicks, but they're also all humanity really has right now fighting in their corner. It's possible some demons could join up on the Dean & Sam human side, probably out of self-preservation, but I also don't see them having anything good planned for humanity either.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 05:30 pm (UTC)Heh. Neither side is all that good. I'd join the third side: the Winchesters. They'd say a big fuck-you to both angels and demons and save the world anyway.