still have sja on the brain

[retro_eidas]

Slight addition to the last post about it, but right now I'm leaning towards - amongst those particular options calapine brought to my attention - the Shadow. Not that I've neglected the Black Guardian option altogether, but .... I don't really think Team Cardiff would put a first appearance of such a big old school nemesis like the Black Guardian in one of the spin-offs (that's an appearance they'd likely save for the flagship show), but I also really like the idea of just a minion of the Black Guardian having that much power. Cuz if a minion has *that* much power to do what he did in WH2SJ, to the point it believes it can threaten the Doctor and apparently not even blink (if it had eyelids... or eyes anyway)? Then what could his master (in his Nu Who incarnation) be capable of? That would be major bad juju y'all and if anyone poses a real, pants-shitting threat to the Doctor? That's the sort of bad juju, I'd imagine, would be able to do it.

However, I'm thinking of it now in conjunction with something I remember in "The Sound of Drums" which, at the time, didn't make a whole lot of sense (and still doesn't, not really)...

Toclafane: "We have to escape! Because it's coming, sir! The darkness! The never-ending darkness. The terrible, terrible cold. We have to run and run and run and run!"

At the time, I just figured they were the "Utopia" humans still reacting to the encroaching end of the universe, despite not being human anymore. However... I had wondered if it may have a bigger meaning than that or at least double entendre. What were the Toclafane (and, possibly, the Master through them, something he might have unconsciously programmed in them) so afraid of? Might the Black Guardian had something to do with that "sound of drums" the Master kept hearing (apart from this supposed retcon madness the Master was apparently suffering from since he was a kid)? Due to the madness or lack of understanding, unable to comprehend what they meant exactly... but he was scared of them and they were driving him mad. If the drums were somehow being caused by the Black Guardian, why wasn't/isn't the Doctor picking up on them? Either the BG is better at concealing himself from the Doctor or could the White Guardian be protecting him (the Doctor)?

From "Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane", pt.2:

Hooded Nemesis / Voldemort lookalike: "Chaos is my blood and air and food. You are the key to that chaos, I have been waiting. Searching through time, just the right person and just the right moment. I took you to aide the coming of darkness."

Y HALO THAR Black Guardian speculations!! BG probably would be right at home on, say, the planet Ten/Martha/Jack found Professor Yana and Chantho. The very end of the universe when all the stars are being devoured into nothingness... in utter darkness.

Maybe Rusty has had a grand plan all along? And it's been spilling out all over the place. Bad Wolf? The release of Abaddon? Bilis Manger = another incarnation of the Shadow? As is possibly the black hooded Voldie-type in SJA?

A new Black Guardian trilogy, perhaps for the 2009 specials (and also probably the big send-off for Tennant)? If that's the case, looks like Rusty & posse upgraded BG quite a bit from the bloke with the dead bird on his head (allbeit a powerful, godlike bloke with a bird on his head) he'd been to apocalyptic baddie to end them all?

If it has been the Black Guardian getting up to all this nasty business and manipulating events which span three different shows, wtf has the White Guardian been doing about it? Sending in/guiding his little knights - namely, the Doctor, Jack & Sarah Jane and their respective companions - before things get too disastrous, unbeknownst to any of them? However, as benevolent gods do, not actually intervening? What was he doing while the Time War was in full thrall? If we are getting BG back and he has had big bad juju upgrade, I'd bet anything it would turn out he probably had something to do with starting the Time War.

**Also, there are "Doctor Who" spoilers (or huge rumors which are hardly spoilers, but I'll call them spoilers to be on the safe side) in the comments.**

Comments

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

To throw in another bit of evidence/support -- the OldSchool DVD releases are often timed to correspond to developments in the new series, and the Key to Time series has just come out in recent months. With, I noticed last night, an unusual concentration on "The Armageddon Factor" in the extras -- unusual, because it was quite lackluster, suffered last-minute rewrites, and generally wasn't as good as previous six-part finales.

[eido.livejournal.com]

See, sane people are supposed to come here and tell me I'm crazy... not actually contribute to my cracky thoughts. But oh, that is interesting about the "Key to Time" release, what else is coming out soon I wonder??

Although if there is anything to this The Black Guardian Is Responsible For It All spec? Especially if it spans all three shows, Who obviously being the focal point? That might also explain, if there's anything to those insane rumors at all, the Daily Star's claims of Martha, Donna, Jack, Sarah Jane, Rose & her fam back for the end of S4/the specials. The culmination of the three show (four series for DW, two for TW and one of SJA) spanning Black Guardian arc AND be a huge send-off for Tennant? BG's story also possibly spilling to S5 and that dramatic arc continues into Eleven?

That "Key to Time" release also makes me wonder about Romana. IF the BG started the Time War and it's Ten's (final?) role to reverse what BG had done (with the White Guardian's help)? Then Eleven's companion could be... Romana (to keep a familiar face to ease in the audience into the transition, possibly regens to look like Catherine Tate or Freema Agyeman? As I'd have zero confidence Billie sticking around past the specials)?

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

If there's one established entity in the Whoverse who has the power to open the rift between universes, and who would be willing to cause that much chaos (heh), it would be the Black Guardian.

I'm not sure I buy the "Black Guardian started the Time War" theory, but I don't doubt he was watching it and giggling.

And as long as we're using DVD releases to predict in-series developments, may I point out that "Destiny of the Daleks" is also being released? Although I doubt they'd have Romana regenerated as either Tate or Agyeman -- Tate's no more likely than Billie to stick around for the long-term, and Freema's already played two characters...

OH! And I meant to say, in my last comment, that in the wake of "The Armageddon Factor", you could plausibly argue that there IS no White Guardian -- or that the White and Black Guardians are the same entity.

[eido.livejournal.com]

If there's one established entity in the Whoverse who has the power to open the rift between universes, and who would be willing to cause that much chaos (heh), it would be the Black Guardian.

And thus what was said about the impossibility of breaching the universes in "Doomsday" isn't totally undermined/handwaved and the danger remains for mere ephemerals like the Doctor by his lonesome without his people's help... but the Black Guardian probably passes to and fro between them without breaking a sweat.

I'm not sure I buy the "Black Guardian started the Time War" theory, but I don't doubt he was watching it and giggling.

It makes sense in my brain (but then my brain is full of crack, don't listen to me!!), what better way to cause seriously delicious beaucoup chaos then get rid of most of the Time Lords? Barring that one annoying bastard who he may have a grudge against and decided to keep alive to torture him? Kept the Master around too for the purposes of Doctor-torture? "There used to be laws stopping this kind of thing from happening - my people would have stopped this. But they're all gone."

And as long as we're using DVD releases to predict in-series developments, may I point out that "Destiny of the Daleks" is also being released?

Which would be Romana (again!! YAY!!) and the other much rumored nemesis return.

Freema's already played two characters...

I thought of that, but then I'd wonder if Rusty might just find that funny/cute, but I'm inclined to share your skepticism.

OH! And I meant to say, in my last comment, that in the wake of "The Armageddon Factor", you could plausibly argue that there IS no White Guardian -- or that the White and Black Guardians are the same entity.

And with that, you've just done my head in.

[eido.livejournal.com]

who would be willing to cause that much chaos (heh), it would be the Black Guardian.

Something disconcerting, however, is this whole Faustian bargains thing which SJA hooded nemesis (the Shadow, in theory) and, IIRC, the Black Guardian were all about. Like they have no power to move or manipulate things on their own unless people agree to the bargain?

Adult Andrea Yates was a lovely blonde woman who had died and, in her opinion, well before her time, but due to the bargain she made with Hooded Nemesis? She wasn't only brought back to life, but someone was killed in her place (in this case, Sarah Jane).

Now I'm really, really not trying to seem like I'm taking a shot at Rose, but.... she was totally and thoroughly devastated at the end of "Doomsday". People have commented muchly about it, to the point some were very disturbed by her level of grief ("This is the day I died"). Perhaps, although a horrifying outcome this would be, just a little too vulnerable to just such a Faustian sort of deal Andrea (and Turlough) fell for, the sort of deal the Black Guardian is known for?

Not comparing Rose to the assholes in the original universe's Torchwood, but the entire team, barring Jack, essentially fell for a similar sort of deal (Agree and we'll give you back what you want... bring Rhys back to life / bring back Diane / bring back Lisa / bring back Mrs. Sato, not said in so many words, but it was rather heavily implied by Bilis... and that released Abaddon). Hell, the Doctor himself almost seemed to be buying into Finch's deal in "School Reunion" until Sarah Jane spoke up with some sense (Rose was, noticeably, silent). Agree, Rose Tyler, and I will bring you back to life... and reunite you with your precious Doctor?

Certainly, if the BG is up in this business, this would be a tremendous blow to the Doctor and Rose's vulnerability/upset/self-sacrificing love for the Doctor is something I'd imagine a being like the BG would completely exploit. I'd want to think Rose would be able to see through him... but then Team Torchwood and the Doctor himself have come damn close to succumbing (or right out succumb, in TT's case) to similar sorts of bargains. Again, Rose was very devastated.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

Oh Lord, that makes so much sense it's kind of scary. It would make a fabulous fic.

And yeah, the Black Guardian needs willing agents to do his work. Presumably because he's embarrassed to be seen in public with a bird on his head.

I would hope that Rose has too much common sense to fall for such a bargain, though -- unlike Andrea, and even Turlough, she should have an idea of how much destruction a powerful being like that can bring. But even the temptation is a tantalising thought.

[eido.livejournal.com]

Oh Lord, that makes so much sense it's kind of scary. It would make a fabulous fic.

I actually remember reading a plotty thing ages ago, not about Rose specifically (although she was in it), where the Doctor actually accepted Finch's offer in "School Reunion" and he went all terrifying godhead-gone-completely-wrong. Romana was also in it. I think God!Ten killed Death, Time and Pain in them? It was quite good and wish I could remember who wrote it.

Presumably because he's embarrassed to be seen in public with a bird on his head.

*snorts* Or he must have gotten tired of getting nasty letters from the Audubon Society.

I would hope that Rose has too much common sense to fall for such a bargain, though -- unlike Andrea, and even Turlough, she should have an idea of how much destruction a powerful being like that can bring. But even the temptation is a tantalising thought.

There is something of a fascination in a hero not only failing, but succumbing to the darkside, y? Although she wouldn't really know what she'd be getting into (but bargains like this, you can always tell the character is all but ignoring that little warning voice in the back of their minds). BG is tricksy like that, tells you exactly what you'd want to hear as any good manipulator/con artist. Has eternity's practice at it, he'd best be good at it.

If it was just examples like Turlough or more recently SJA's Andrea I probably wouldn't even be thinking of this, but then there's the "Torchwood" s1 finale (but, heh, that's Torchwood) and then the Doctor's temptation in "School Reunion". Probably other examples I'm forgetting. Some of those Who villains do love their unholy bargaining. BG would be like the ultimate in that regard... and at the mo' and based on from when we last saw her, I'd say Rose would be most vulnerable and the prospects of that are equal parts scary / brilliant.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

That fic was "Bad Gods" by calapine. *is incredibly helpful*

[eido.livejournal.com]

Yes you is!! Thank you!!

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I would hope that Rose has too much common sense to fall for such a bargain, though -- unlike Andrea, and even Turlough, she should have an idea of how much destruction a powerful being like that can bring.

Rose tends to lose perspective when it comes to having and keep the people she loves around. She did in Father's Day, with unpleasant consequences. And the whole Bad Wolf business took place because she was determined to hang on to the Doctor, no matter what. Sure it worked, but it was powerful and dangerous.

And, unless the Doctor specifically warned her, she wouldn't know who the Black Guardian was. If someone very powerful offered her a seemingly harmless way back to the Doctor, as devastated as she seemed at the end of Doomsday, I could see her making a foolish choice. Particularly if she didn't see the harm she was doing.

[eido.livejournal.com]

She did in Father's Day, with unpleasant consequences.

Then, still not heeding the Doctor's warnings, runs after daddy again in the Cybermen arc.

And, unless the Doctor specifically warned her, she wouldn't know who the Black Guardian was.

No more than Martha would have known about not-so-nice Time Lords, based on what the Doctor told her.

If someone very powerful offered her a seemingly harmless way back to the Doctor, as devastated as she seemed at the end of Doomsday, I could see her making a foolish choice.

She was desperate to stay on the station in TSP, impeding an evacuation, rather dying then leave the Doctor behind. She refused to see or acknowledge what her mother was warning her about in AoG, about staying with the Doctor too long making you something not human (the 'alien bazaar' analogy). She didn't care about losing her humanity or her family, she was - bordering/surpassing the irrational - willing to stay with the Doctor no matter what because she was completely incapable of seeing any life without him. Her love for him blinding her to just about everything else. That might not have changed so much despite the time they've been separated... if that's the case, it would be the ideal thing for something like BG to exploit.

Goes without saying those Faustian deals are always firmly Be Careful What You Wish For. I do wonder what would happen, if the BG is coming back and he does make a deal with Rose and she accepts? Her wish would inevitably be to be with the man she loves again. However, what will the ironic consequences entail? One would probably be - aside from any small allowances he makes for BG's manipulation of her and him blaming himself - the Doctor's less-than-pleasant reaction about her willing to trust some strange powerful entity, risking the whole universe, just to selfishly see him again (probably something akin to Eight's anger at Charley when she stowed away on the TARDIS when he'd been banished by Romana). His reaction would probably catch her off-guard or even damage whatever remaining love he has or believed he had for her. There's also the possibility he's found someone else to love, which would certainly take Rose off guard, if she automatically assumed he wasn't going to move on from her just as she hadn't from him, believing him dying of loneliness without her and thus fueling her belief she needs to get back to him (which could also be part of BG's manipulation, making her think the Doctor is near suicidal or something having lost her).