still have sja on the brain
Nov. 8th, 2007 06:28 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
retro_eidasSlight addition to the last post about it, but right now I'm leaning towards - amongst those particular options ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
calapine brought to my attention - the Shadow. Not that I've neglected the Black Guardian option altogether, but .... I don't really think Team Cardiff would put a first appearance of such a big old school nemesis like the Black Guardian in one of the spin-offs (that's an appearance they'd likely save for the flagship show), but I also really like the idea of just a minion of the Black Guardian having that much power. Cuz if a minion has *that* much power to do what he did in WH2SJ, to the point it believes it can threaten the Doctor and apparently not even blink (if it had eyelids... or eyes anyway)? Then what could his master (in his Nu Who incarnation) be capable of? That would be major bad juju y'all and if anyone poses a real, pants-shitting threat to the Doctor? That's the sort of bad juju, I'd imagine, would be able to do it.
However, I'm thinking of it now in conjunction with something I remember in "The Sound of Drums" which, at the time, didn't make a whole lot of sense (and still doesn't, not really)...
Toclafane: "We have to escape! Because it's coming, sir! The darkness! The never-ending darkness. The terrible, terrible cold. We have to run and run and run and run!"
At the time, I just figured they were the "Utopia" humans still reacting to the encroaching end of the universe, despite not being human anymore. However... I had wondered if it may have a bigger meaning than that or at least double entendre. What were the Toclafane (and, possibly, the Master through them, something he might have unconsciously programmed in them) so afraid of? Might the Black Guardian had something to do with that "sound of drums" the Master kept hearing (apart from this supposed retcon madness the Master was apparently suffering from since he was a kid)? Due to the madness or lack of understanding, unable to comprehend what they meant exactly... but he was scared of them and they were driving him mad. If the drums were somehow being caused by the Black Guardian, why wasn't/isn't the Doctor picking up on them? Either the BG is better at concealing himself from the Doctor or could the White Guardian be protecting him (the Doctor)?
From "Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane", pt.2:
Hooded Nemesis / Voldemort lookalike: "Chaos is my blood and air and food. You are the key to that chaos, I have been waiting. Searching through time, just the right person and just the right moment. I took you to aide the coming of darkness."
Y HALO THAR Black Guardian speculations!! BG probably would be right at home on, say, the planet Ten/Martha/Jack found Professor Yana and Chantho. The very end of the universe when all the stars are being devoured into nothingness... in utter darkness.
Maybe Rusty has had a grand plan all along? And it's been spilling out all over the place. Bad Wolf? The release of Abaddon? Bilis Manger = another incarnation of the Shadow? As is possibly the black hooded Voldie-type in SJA?
A new Black Guardian trilogy, perhaps for the 2009 specials (and also probably the big send-off for Tennant)? If that's the case, looks like Rusty & posse upgraded BG quite a bit from the bloke with the dead bird on his head (allbeit a powerful, godlike bloke with a bird on his head) he'd been to apocalyptic baddie to end them all?
If it has been the Black Guardian getting up to all this nasty business and manipulating events which span three different shows, wtf has the White Guardian been doing about it? Sending in/guiding his little knights - namely, the Doctor, Jack & Sarah Jane and their respective companions - before things get too disastrous, unbeknownst to any of them? However, as benevolent gods do, not actually intervening? What was he doing while the Time War was in full thrall? If we are getting BG back and he has had big bad juju upgrade, I'd bet anything it would turn out he probably had something to do with starting the Time War.
**Also, there are "Doctor Who" spoilers (or huge rumors which are hardly spoilers, but I'll call them spoilers to be on the safe side) in the comments.**
calapine brought to my attention - the Shadow. Not that I've neglected the Black Guardian option altogether, but .... I don't really think Team Cardiff would put a first appearance of such a big old school nemesis like the Black Guardian in one of the spin-offs (that's an appearance they'd likely save for the flagship show), but I also really like the idea of just a minion of the Black Guardian having that much power. Cuz if a minion has *that* much power to do what he did in WH2SJ, to the point it believes it can threaten the Doctor and apparently not even blink (if it had eyelids... or eyes anyway)? Then what could his master (in his Nu Who incarnation) be capable of? That would be major bad juju y'all and if anyone poses a real, pants-shitting threat to the Doctor? That's the sort of bad juju, I'd imagine, would be able to do it.However, I'm thinking of it now in conjunction with something I remember in "The Sound of Drums" which, at the time, didn't make a whole lot of sense (and still doesn't, not really)...
Toclafane: "We have to escape! Because it's coming, sir! The darkness! The never-ending darkness. The terrible, terrible cold. We have to run and run and run and run!"
At the time, I just figured they were the "Utopia" humans still reacting to the encroaching end of the universe, despite not being human anymore. However... I had wondered if it may have a bigger meaning than that or at least double entendre. What were the Toclafane (and, possibly, the Master through them, something he might have unconsciously programmed in them) so afraid of? Might the Black Guardian had something to do with that "sound of drums" the Master kept hearing (apart from this supposed retcon madness the Master was apparently suffering from since he was a kid)? Due to the madness or lack of understanding, unable to comprehend what they meant exactly... but he was scared of them and they were driving him mad. If the drums were somehow being caused by the Black Guardian, why wasn't/isn't the Doctor picking up on them? Either the BG is better at concealing himself from the Doctor or could the White Guardian be protecting him (the Doctor)?
From "Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane", pt.2:
Hooded Nemesis / Voldemort lookalike: "Chaos is my blood and air and food. You are the key to that chaos, I have been waiting. Searching through time, just the right person and just the right moment. I took you to aide the coming of darkness."
Y HALO THAR Black Guardian speculations!! BG probably would be right at home on, say, the planet Ten/Martha/Jack found Professor Yana and Chantho. The very end of the universe when all the stars are being devoured into nothingness... in utter darkness.
Maybe Rusty has had a grand plan all along? And it's been spilling out all over the place. Bad Wolf? The release of Abaddon? Bilis Manger = another incarnation of the Shadow? As is possibly the black hooded Voldie-type in SJA?
A new Black Guardian trilogy, perhaps for the 2009 specials (and also probably the big send-off for Tennant)? If that's the case, looks like Rusty & posse upgraded BG quite a bit from the bloke with the dead bird on his head (allbeit a powerful, godlike bloke with a bird on his head) he'd been to apocalyptic baddie to end them all?
If it has been the Black Guardian getting up to all this nasty business and manipulating events which span three different shows, wtf has the White Guardian been doing about it? Sending in/guiding his little knights - namely, the Doctor, Jack & Sarah Jane and their respective companions - before things get too disastrous, unbeknownst to any of them? However, as benevolent gods do, not actually intervening? What was he doing while the Time War was in full thrall? If we are getting BG back and he has had big bad juju upgrade, I'd bet anything it would turn out he probably had something to do with starting the Time War.
**Also, there are "Doctor Who" spoilers (or huge rumors which are hardly spoilers, but I'll call them spoilers to be on the safe side) in the comments.**
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no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 04:33 am (UTC)And yeah, the Black Guardian needs willing agents to do his work. Presumably because he's embarrassed to be seen in public with a bird on his head.
I would hope that Rose has too much common sense to fall for such a bargain, though -- unlike Andrea, and even Turlough, she should have an idea of how much destruction a powerful being like that can bring. But even the temptation is a tantalising thought.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 09:31 pm (UTC)I actually remember reading a plotty thing ages ago, not about Rose specifically (although she was in it), where the Doctor actually accepted Finch's offer in "School Reunion" and he went all terrifying godhead-gone-completely-wrong. Romana was also in it. I think God!Ten killed Death, Time and Pain in them? It was quite good and wish I could remember who wrote it.
Presumably because he's embarrassed to be seen in public with a bird on his head.
*snorts* Or he must have gotten tired of getting nasty letters from the Audubon Society.
I would hope that Rose has too much common sense to fall for such a bargain, though -- unlike Andrea, and even Turlough, she should have an idea of how much destruction a powerful being like that can bring. But even the temptation is a tantalising thought.
There is something of a fascination in a hero not only failing, but succumbing to the darkside, y? Although she wouldn't really know what she'd be getting into (but bargains like this, you can always tell the character is all but ignoring that little warning voice in the back of their minds). BG is tricksy like that, tells you exactly what you'd want to hear as any good manipulator/con artist. Has eternity's practice at it, he'd best be good at it.
If it was just examples like Turlough or more recently SJA's Andrea I probably wouldn't even be thinking of this, but then there's the "Torchwood" s1 finale (but, heh, that's Torchwood) and then the Doctor's temptation in "School Reunion". Probably other examples I'm forgetting. Some of those Who villains do love their unholy bargaining. BG would be like the ultimate in that regard... and at the mo' and based on from when we last saw her, I'd say Rose would be most vulnerable and the prospects of that are equal parts scary / brilliant.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 09:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 10:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-12 04:12 am (UTC)Rose tends to lose perspective when it comes to having and keep the people she loves around. She did in Father's Day, with unpleasant consequences. And the whole Bad Wolf business took place because she was determined to hang on to the Doctor, no matter what. Sure it worked, but it was powerful and dangerous.
And, unless the Doctor specifically warned her, she wouldn't know who the Black Guardian was. If someone very powerful offered her a seemingly harmless way back to the Doctor, as devastated as she seemed at the end of Doomsday, I could see her making a foolish choice. Particularly if she didn't see the harm she was doing.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-12 11:53 pm (UTC)Then, still not heeding the Doctor's warnings, runs after daddy again in the Cybermen arc.
And, unless the Doctor specifically warned her, she wouldn't know who the Black Guardian was.
No more than Martha would have known about not-so-nice Time Lords, based on what the Doctor told her.
If someone very powerful offered her a seemingly harmless way back to the Doctor, as devastated as she seemed at the end of Doomsday, I could see her making a foolish choice.
She was desperate to stay on the station in TSP, impeding an evacuation, rather dying then leave the Doctor behind. She refused to see or acknowledge what her mother was warning her about in AoG, about staying with the Doctor too long making you something not human (the 'alien bazaar' analogy). She didn't care about losing her humanity or her family, she was - bordering/surpassing the irrational - willing to stay with the Doctor no matter what because she was completely incapable of seeing any life without him. Her love for him blinding her to just about everything else. That might not have changed so much despite the time they've been separated... if that's the case, it would be the ideal thing for something like BG to exploit.
Goes without saying those Faustian deals are always firmly Be Careful What You Wish For. I do wonder what would happen, if the BG is coming back and he does make a deal with Rose and she accepts? Her wish would inevitably be to be with the man she loves again. However, what will the ironic consequences entail? One would probably be - aside from any small allowances he makes for BG's manipulation of her and him blaming himself - the Doctor's less-than-pleasant reaction about her willing to trust some strange powerful entity, risking the whole universe, just to selfishly see him again (probably something akin to Eight's anger at Charley when she stowed away on the TARDIS when he'd been banished by Romana). His reaction would probably catch her off-guard or even damage whatever remaining love he has or believed he had for her. There's also the possibility he's found someone else to love, which would certainly take Rose off guard, if she automatically assumed he wasn't going to move on from her just as she hadn't from him, believing him dying of loneliness without her and thus fueling her belief she needs to get back to him (which could also be part of BG's manipulation, making her think the Doctor is near suicidal or something having lost her).