new fandom + the quincy key

[retro_eidas]

Just when I can't possibly be barraged with yet another fandom... another comes along of course. Within a few months, "Firefly" infected me like the plague. Then SGA came along. The newest edition to obsessive-compulsive speculating insanity? Bleach. For the non-otaku and/or minus a DLing fetish, you might not be familiar with this slice of fanon and thus this entry will mean absolutely nothing. However, it's the current hot item in anime... and my soul is all but it's bitch at the moment.

Also special thanks to new friends _debbiechan_ and mrs_urahara that propagate the :cough:hot Quincy:cough: speculating madness. Since I can't seem to join a fandom without being able to nerdily speculate about it ad infinitum, I'm not sure these poor folks realize what they've gotten themselves into. If either of you bother to read this, I apologize. A lot of it will be retread from bits of our "Significant Filler" discussion over at soul_society.

"The person who will protect this era... A Quincy is this key person." (not verbatim)
Oh the ridiculous amount of questions that statement has made for me... but it makes the sad, sad fangirl tingly in more naughty parts than I'd care to admit.

What exactly did Yoshino mean by a Quincy being "the key to save this era"? How do the Bound know this piece of information? Sounds like the makings of an impending prophecy reveal to me. Ishida part of some massive Bound prophecy... or just a prophecy in general? Something not necessarily limited to the Bound? Ryuuken? Souken? The Quincy (at least prior their genocide)? Perhaps more importantly (and scarily), the Shinigami?

Entirely hypotheticaly speaking... if the (or some... I'd say, Aizen and probably some or all of deceased Central 46) of the Shinigami are aware of this speculated prophecy regarding the Quincy and if the nature of the prophecy were threatening/apocalyptic/universe-altering/etc etc enough... What kind of precautions might they have taken? We already know now what they're capable of regarding those damn obstinate Quincy, so stubborn and proud to the point of imbalancing and threatening the end of the world they had to be permanently removed from the equation (or so we're told)... could they be capable of much more? Taking a look at Aizen, Gin and Mayuri... or hell, even those with 'good' intentions as Tousen, Yamamoto, Hinamori, Urahara and Byakuya... I'm truthfully afraid of the full extent of things they're capable of (whether it's willfully or unintentionally... by duty, honor, curiosity, misplaced justice or manipulation). Whatever their intentions. Who watches the Watchmen, indeed.

Was Mayuri purely satisfying his own insatiably sick curiousity regarding all his (apparently, mass amounts of) Quincy experiments? Or was there something more to it than that? Was he also going by orders? Orders from whom?

Was the Quincy Extermination of 200 years ago really unavoidable? Furthermore, if the extermination was such a "hard" decision as Rukia was told (via Urahara presumedly)... why or how did Mayuri get access to desecrate so many (I believe the number ranged around 1600+) Quincy for the sake of his experiments? Was he just that sly he could abscond with that many souls and go unnoticed? He doesn't seem to take much tact in keeping the Quincy experiments a secret if they're supposed to be secret (hell, he apparently carried around a memento on his person of at least one of the his favorite test subjects... Uryuu's grandfather/sensei, Souken) and he was talking about said experiments openly in Soul Society. Cpt. Kyouraku's departing comments to him in ep71 would also make me lean towards Mayuri's hobbies not necessarily secrets (and what does Kyouraku and possibly the other Shinigami know exactly about those hobbies?). I do unfortunately find it hard to believe the Shinigami didn't have some general idea what was happening to those Quincy. If Ryuuken has any kind of fuel in reigniting Uryuu's hatred of the Death Gods, this probably would be his coup de grace.

In regards to the above paragraph... one could speculate every action Ryuuken has taken was in part of some greater purpose, one that he believes (as did Souken?) is destined for Uryuu.

What exactly did Urahara do that was so bad that led to his exile from Soul Society? Particularly considering some of Mengele-taicho's hobbies (and he isn't only still partaking in said hobbies, but is the current 12th Division Captain. The frickin' promoted him. Jesus). What did he do that was so much worse than what Mayuri has done/is doing? Sure the Hogyoku could be bad enough. However... I do wonder if Mayuri has friends in very high places. He may not have ascended into HellHeaven a la Aizen, but another compadre perhaps?

I'm also wondering if Urahara's exile was so involuntary as it sounds. The word "exile" tends to exclaim 'involuntary', of course and I don't doubt it was completely serious and all forcible on the part of Shinigami's ruling body ... but I can't help but wonder just a little 'self-imposed' might factor in as well? Ditto Tessai (who I'd bet anything was Urahara's koutaicho), Yoriuchi and Isshin. I mean to say, Urahara might not have completely regretted leaving. Urahara, possibly Tessai, Yoriuchi and Isshin... all were in *high* positions of power. Until they were just... not anymore. Could it be they may have learned some very dirty and very ugly secrets about SS and wanted to leave (in utter moral disagreement and possibly in fear of their lives. Loose lips sink hellheaven-bound ships, after all)? Yoruichi took it all a step further and was apparently all but *dead* to the Shinigami for a CENTURY. Since I don't follow the manga as closely as I probably should... I'd guess Isshin also possibly faked his death (my guess? Kenpachi believes he'd killed him. Isshin just screams former 11th Division taicho to me).

And on an entirely unrelated venue... what the hell is Cpt. Komamura? Unfortunate recipient of a high level demon spell gone bad? Youkai? Possibly more likely, a hanyou (he seems to have a similar sort of shame/angst as young Inuyasha did. Consequence of a taboo youkai/human union... and made to feel that way most of his life, up until meeting Commander Yamamoto and Tousen)?

Comments

Re: cont

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"was referring to.... but Yuzu? Yuzu - as opposed to Ichigo and Karin who seem more like Isshin and Shinigami-esque - who always seemed to take more after her mother... from her physical traits to her demeanor. Maybe her spirit-power takes after Masaki as well?"
---COULD YOUI IMAGINE?!?! now i would REALLY hope that Kubo would have his hand in this somehow. Though, a part of me, really wants Masaki to perhaps have something other than that..or nothing at all. you know? A part of me is hoping for a delectably sordid past between masaki, isshin and & ryuuken. Maybe she was a quincy. omg! i'll have to really let this one sit and see if there is ANYTHING that could somehow support that. ^___^

"the image of Cousin Uryuu one day all sweetly teaching little Kurosaki Yuzu just like Grandpa Souken taught him. If that couldn't get him a girlfriend, I don't know what would."
-- the only thing that would factor in here is that Ichigo's character does not play well with ishida being of familial relations, neh? Even though they seemed to have a "friendship" during the souls society arc, there was definitely that, as Yoruichi said of Ganjun & Ichigo, this "male chest thumping" between the two. I could not see Ichigo really being comfortable with Yuzu teaching his little sister. It would threaten his status not only as the brother, but as this overwhelming need for him to be the protector of his younger siblings. which leads me to your other interesting prospect..

"Also regarding that tragic Quincy habit of "self-sacrifice".... Masaki very likely threw her own body in front of the Grand Fisher protecting Ichigo. Sacrificing herself to protect her son."
-- so true!! though, here is some kindling to add to that hypothetic spark: I wonder if it was also a motherly thing to do. I know many a mother who would sacrifice their life for the sake of their children, neh? but, she could have that added layer of being a qiuncy to it, too. hmmmmm...

"the potential to end the centuries-old feud between the Shinigami and the Quincy. This could be more reason for Ryuuken to want to keep his son and Ichigo apart.... if the friendship was left to grow on it's own vices, it could be only a matter of time before they start figuring things out for themselves... and Ryuuken won't let that happen. Particularly if any of the Kurosaki kids (particularly Yuzu) started displaying Quincy abilities."
--- gah! so INTERESTING!!!! i see where you are coming from!
yet, ichigo seems to be the catalyst for everyone realising their spiritual abilities. Yoruichi or was it Urahara tells both Chad and Orihime that because Ichigo opened up his spiritual powers even more, when he "took over" Rukia's powers, it awakened their own. not to mention, Karin wonders how her brother has to do with her being able to see hollows and the dead and what his connection to it all is. I deem it is fair to say that the same would go for Tatsuki, whose own powers are now starting to awaken, probably due the increase of Ichigo's powers. not to mention, now, Asago's? it seems that, if Yuzu had ANY spiritual capabilty, quincy or otherwise, Ichigo would have something to do with that seed awakening.

AND>....a part of me wonders, PERHAPS, this is ALSO why Isshin gave up his shinigami powers. If he wanted him and his family to live a normal life, he would have to contain those powers, so as to not affect his children's awakenings. If Ichigo was able to see them when he was young, it must meant that Ichigo was already born with more powerful latent abilities. Actually, in reality, Rukia was the true catalyst. She said that herself, that perhaps, her interaction with him in the beginning of the manga, awakened latent spiritual powers. If he ahd that much energy for someone soo young....Masaki MUST play into somehow..and it could be that Quincy powers magnified this...

which is what you said: "This could also explain Ichigo's *massive* spirit-power. Shinigami/Quincy parents? Such a pairing probably would garner massively strong children"

dang...too many words....the rest in a following post

There's Something About Masaki

[eido.livejournal.com]

the only thing that would factor in here is that Ichigo's character does not play well with ishida being of familial relations, neh?

Despite the initial shock, I actually think Ichi would come to think of Ishida like a brother if he were related to him... or even if he weren't (in this spec, they'd technically be first cousins). He already protects him just by being friends (and Ishida being powerless at the moment). Ichigo definitely seems to have a "blood is thicker than water" mindset to him and he made a vow he'd protect his family... if that turned out to include Ishida, then he'd openly welcome him. Ichigo often reminds me of Goku in that way... with the exceptions like those really evil opponents like Frieza or Raditz, he fought several powerful enemies but then eventually ended up developing a macho camaraderie with them and they'd go to barbecues together. It's amusing. Renji, Kenpachi, Ikkaku, Ishida all seem to be in that 'macho camaraderie' area with Ichigo.... all of which were former enemies.

Ishida would probably have the bigger problem accepting it, but he's also already friends with Ichigo (despite what Ryuuken may do to try and drive a wedge between them) ... whatever problem he may have, it may have more to do with the secrets keepers than Ichigo himself.

It would threaten his status not only as the brother, but as this overwhelming need for him to be the protector of his younger siblings.

Chad protected Karin and Ichigo didn't have a problem with it. I don't think he'd have a problem with Uryuu becoming Yuzu's sensei. Especially if his own beloved mother herself was a Quincy (whether she knew it or not).

I wonder if it was also a motherly thing to do.

Oh I definitely think that factored in, no question. It was her son and further we clearly see how especially devoted Masaki and Ichigo were to each other. That could have been all there was to it... but my honest opinion? I do think there was indeed more to it than that, which is what we and a rabble of folks have been speculating right along like junkies, yes? ;)

ichigo seems to be the catalyst for everyone realising their spiritual abilities.

What's kind of interesting about that is, although Ichigo did basically cause the spark that awakened - for example - Chad's and Orihime's abilities, it wasn't until the duel Ishida initiated with Ichigo and called for the Hollows that those powers finally came to fruition. Ironic, isn't it? Ichigo was like the first step and Ishida the last before their powers finally erupted.

if Yuzu had ANY spiritual capabilty, quincy or otherwise, Ichigo would have something to do with that seed awakening.

Possibly, but then Yuzu is very young. It could be her powers have indeed already awakened, but due to her age they're not as developed yet. Yuzu also doesn't have a grandpa to teach her the ropes like Uryuu had. Her own father is a secret former Shinigami... and none of his kids have the slightest idea. Uryuu was lucky in that he had knowledge and history of what he was c/o his grandfather/sensei ... not so much for the Kurosakis (apart from their non-chalance about ghost seeing/sensing).

Re: There's Something About Masaki

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

It;s all coming together now. I completely understand where you are going with this now.

You helped me see things in Ichigo that I forgot about. You are right: Ishida, is part of this "macho" bond that Ichigo has with some of the other shinigami. And, You reminded me that Ishida is the one really carrying more of the grudge about q vs s than Ichigo. AND, if they were related...I think it would be comedic food for fodder.

I see exactly what you mean that Rukia awakened the shinigami in Ichigo and Ishida awakened it even more, when Ichigo defeated the Menos Grande (LOVE how Kubo-san is into spanish phrases and culture--ee chado-- being half brazilian myself, it gives me hope that maybe I could date a hottie nihonjin--heehee). Then, I remembered, too, that it was also Ishida combinig his power with Ichgio's that really catapulted his reiatsu to a point that Ishida put his differences aside to "save" Ichigo.

and, maybe Ichigo would not have a foreseeable issue (though i could see comedic entanglments arise) when Ishida "trains" little Yuzu. You are right, that if he knew his mum was a Quincy, he would want Yuzu to have that, regargless of his "chest-thumping" boughts with Ishida.

Now, given all this..is still seems a little unlikely that Kubo-san would make the Ishida clan and Kurosaki clan related, by blood..but by spiritual powers (i.e. Masaki being a Quincy) there is that possibility....DEFINITELY!

Re: There's Something About Masaki

[eido.livejournal.com]

LOVE how Kubo-san is into spanish phrases and culture

Although I don't know what Kubo is playing at. Why are all the villains using the Spanish, eh?! Arrancar, Espadas, "Hueco Mundo" (technically it should be Mundo hueco, but since it's a proper name it can slide by for the bad grammar)? Chad is of Mexican descent, but his name isn't Hispanic in origin, it's Japanese. LOL Kubo have some bad experience in a Latin American country or something? Seriously though, I have wondered if that's Kubo's possible shout-out to the Mexican Day of the Dead... the Spanish, a character of Mexican descent. The Hollows and the masks often remind me of the calaveras you always see around Mexico in the beginning of November.

Now, given all this..is still seems a little unlikely that Kubo-san would make the Ishida clan and Kurosaki clan related

After I thought about it, I also doubt they're related. I can't remember if it was the anime or manga (maybe both) where Ishida said Soul Society was keeping a close eye on his grandfather. We still have a lot to learn about Ryuuken and his clandestine behavior (was he being monitored too? If so where is he training Uryuu?). If Souken was being watched so closely, Masaki may have been as well... if that were the case, SS should already know what/who Ichigo's mother was and I don't really get that impression. If Masaki was a Quincy (and she didn't know it), she probably wasn't an Ishida.

Re: There's Something About Masaki

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Seriously though, I have wondered if that's Kubo's possible shout-out to the Mexican Day of the Dead... the Spanish, a character of Mexican descent. The Hollows and the masks often remind me of the calaveras you always see around Mexico in the beginning of November"
--hmm...that's interesting. There is a bit of correlation between the hollows and the Mexican day of the dead thing. Also, i know when I asked my friend Yukiko about the new interest the japanese have with the spanish (kubo is not hte only one)...she said "well, we already really know about america and europe, the spanish-speaking countries are soo new to japanese culture, so it is fascinating for us". she's so cute. ^____^

"I can't remember if it was the anime or manga (maybe both) where Ishida said Soul Society was keeping a close eye on his grandfather."
--it was in both. But, in the fight with Mayuri, Mayuri KNEW about Ishida..he just could not remember his name. Which was interesting, for i guess they saw that Uryuu was no threat or use to them. So, i also wonder, if Ryuuken also did it to save his butt, not just to save his family. Maybe he feared, that being the provider and caretaker with of his family, he felt a duty and obligation to renounce his quincy powers. If you remember, Souken gives that speech about finding the thing you want to protect. I think Ryuuken did just that. I deem his resentment toward his father, Souken, may be that he renounced the quincy heritage to protect his family, and ina way, Souken was "disobeying" Ryuuken's decision by training Uryuu.

"Masaki may have been as well... if that were the case, SS should already know what/who Ichigo's mother was and I don't really get that impression. If Masaki was a Quincy (and she didn't know it), she probably wasn't an Ishida"
--tru. they would have known her, more importantly...i am convinced Isshin's surname is a disguised one, otherwise, how would Ichigo's last name go so blindly unnoticed..unless it's that kent clark thing again.

I don't think Masaki was an Ishida...but she's definitely something! If anything food for our intellectual musings and hopefully a future plot/character arc resolution. ^___^

Re: There's Something About Masaki

[eido.livejournal.com]

i guess they saw that Uryuu was no threat or use to them.

That could very well be. Going back to the original conspiracy theory, the seeming 'threat' to the Shinigami / universe / whathaveyou that the Shinigami feard would have been intermarrying/breeding between Quincy and Shinigami (thus, per our theories, risking release of the inner-demon/Hollow ... in other words, Quincy + Shinigami = Hogyoku or natural Hogyoku, in this case). Ryuuken may have kept himself and his son safe by proving to Central 46 his total agreement in segregation from their affairs. He also likely vowed he'd keep his son from mingling with the Shinigami also.... thus protecting his family (and explaining Ryuuken's stipulation in training Uryuu. Ryuuken is using the training as blackmail to keep Uryuu away from his newfound - Shinigami - friends).

Ryuuken also could be training Uryuu due to the now unavoidable impending threat coming (partly thanks to Uryuu revealing himself in Soul Society but also due to the Aizen situation)? A threat he knows could very likely be directed right at them as the last of the Quincy (in theory, the vital ingredient to the Hogyoku creation)?

Souken, however, kept approaching Central 46 asking them to unite the Shinigami and Quincy forces... considering our conspiracy theory, of course, Central 46 rejected him every time. Until Mayuri finally got to him silencing him forever.

However, I do wonder, if one family like the Ishidas managed to hide / keep safe from the Shinigami... could there be more Quincy out there in hiding? In our specs, Masaki's family was another one of those families. Allbeit, likely not very many Quincy survived... but could there be a few more out there besides the Ishidas? May Ryuuken know where they are. I only speculate this I admit because the idea of a reborn, powerful small band of Quincy (led possibly by Ryuuken) could be very intriguing.

I deem his resentment toward his father, Souken, may be that he renounced the quincy heritage to protect his family, and ina way, Souken was "disobeying" Ryuuken's decision by training Uryuu.

That could very well be, however, Ryuuken may have been angrier at Souken for his repeated contacting of Central 46 and thus keeping the Shinigami in such close proximity to his family, namely Uryuu. If Ryuuken knew Central 46 was terrified of any alliance with the Quincy that could someday lead to interbreeding or power-mixing, Ryuuken would want himself (and his son) far away from the Shinigami's affairs as possible... yet Souken kept approaching them. In Ryuuken's mind, endangering not only himself, but Uryuu as well. When Souken was finally killed, Ryuuken may have been more relieved than anything (even if it was his own father, Ryuuken may have known it would have taken death to make Souken stop trying to make peace with the Shinigami, ending the centuries old feud).

they would have known her, more importantly...i am convinced Isshin's surname is a disguised one

I think it would have to be, with Ichigo's (Karin's and also someday Yuzu's) high reiatsu... Ichigo coming into contact with Soul Society one day was probably an inevitability to him, thus the importance of changing his name. Especially with someone as powerful as he obviously is and/or if he was indeed a Captain... his real name is probably one that would be instantly recognized amongst Soul Society. Maybe even amongst the younger Shinigami. Something of legend, like Yoruichi.

Quincy Justice

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Ryuuken may have kept himself and his son safe by proving to Central 46 his total agreement in segregation from their affairs. He also likely vowed he'd keep his son from mingling with the Shinigami also.... thus protecting his family (and explaining Ryuuken's stipulation in training Uryuu. Ryuuken is using the training as blackmail to keep Uryuu away from his newfound - Shinigami - friends)."
--huh. that IS interesting and a highly probable situation..though, it seems that Ryuuken's blackmailing Ishida delves into something much deeper. It felt to me as if there IS some sort of hatred for the shinigami for some reason..which could play into that Masaki love triangle we have been speculating.

"Central 46 rejected him every time. Until Mayuri finally got to him silencing him forever"
---i forgot about that..i think Ishida mentions that in the 6th volume...wait....*runs to check*..yup. 6th volume, p60-63. Souken did plead to the SHinigami to see if there was a way they could band forces, but they didn't listen. I guess he was MORE Of a threat than all the quincies combined.
heh-heh. whihc makes me think of Tousen, perhaps Aizen "opened" tousen's eyes and showed him that Soul Society was truly not a just and equitable organization, but did things according to their own law. AND, come to think of it...Utikake brings this up to Yamaji, too. When Utikake and SHunsui see that Soul Society's laws have to be changed. He challenged Yamaji by telling him that he taught Utikake and SHunsui to trust their heart and to live according to their own truths...hmmm...so, i am thinking maybe this last arc will bring closure to this "inner" turmoil.
not just through the characters, but the overacrhing themes themselves.

"Ryuuken would want himself (and his son) far away from the Shinigami's affairs as possible... yet Souken kept approaching them. In Ryuuken's mind, endangering not only himself, but Uryuu as well. When Souken was finally killed, Ryuuken may have been more relieved than anything (even if it was his own father, Ryuuken may have known it would have taken death to make Souken stop trying to make peace with the Shinigami, ending the centuries old feud)."

EXCELLENT point!

Re: Quincy Justice

[eido.livejournal.com]

though, it seems that Ryuuken's blackmailing Ishida delves into something much deeper.

I don't doubt it, but a little blackmail (to keep him from the Shinigami... Shinigami who felt threatened by the Quincy, per these theories) never hurt either.

whihc makes me think of Tousen, perhaps Aizen "opened" tousen's eyes and showed him that Soul Society was truly not a just and equitable organization, but did things according to their own law.

That's what I'm thinking as well, regardless if our theories actually come to play in the anime/manga... A man like Tousen would probably want a very good reason to betray the organization he'd sworn loyalty too and with "less bloodshed" (that seems to be his big thing, avoiding needless deaths).

Re: Quincy Justice

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"A man like Tousen would probably want a very good reason to betray the organization he'd sworn loyalty too and with "less bloodshed" (that seems to be his big thing, avoiding needless deaths)."
--it's gotta be..i also wonder if Kubo-san may reveal who the "friend"'s grave Tousen visits. It was hinted it was a woman who became a shinigami. So...you wonder what happened . . maybe this also allowed AIzen to tweak his loyalty.

Re: There's Something About Masaki, CONT.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I don't think Masaki was an Ishida...but she's definitely something! If anything food for our intellectual musings and hopefully a future plot/character arc resolution. ^___^

You know, this is even getting more lost in speculation, but... I was wondering how old Isshin might actually be. Shinigami seem to live much, much longer and age much more slowly than humans. If Isshin was a Captain when he left Soul Society, he is very possibly quite old. Maybe as old or older than Ukitake or Shunsui. Yamaji would likely know him. If Isshin was old enough... I wonder if he could have taken part in the Quincy Genocide of 200 years ago. Maybe so horrified at what he was ordered to do, he secretly decided to save however many Quincy he could. Maybe some of those Quincy he saved were part of Masaki's lineage? 180 (give or take) years later, he runs into Masaki, descended from those Quincy he had saved (he recognizes a familiar reiatsu in her, even if Masaki herself has no powers as a Quincy / has no idea what she is. Her family likely long ago given up the Quincy arts for safety reasons). Isshin falls in love with her and decides to marry her, despite the risk. However, as to protect her from the eyes of Soul Society (knowing what Central 46 would do if they found out what she was), he fakes his death, gets one of those untraceable gigai from Urahara and hides in the human world with his beautiful new (secret Quincy-descended) wife.

It also could be - either due to his own knowledge or Urahara's research - Isshin knows exactly what his children could be (natural Hogyoku?)... yet also knows that with the power Ichigo has lying inside of him and when that power comes to total fruition, Soul Society will be no match for son (or his daughters). This Aizen situation, on the other hand? That may not be something Isshin foresaw... but there's nothing he can do about it now but deal with it.

QUicny Past

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

" wonder if he could have taken part in the Quincy Genocide of 200 years ago. Maybe so horrified at what he was ordered to do, he secretly decided to save however many Quincy he could. Maybe some of those Quincy he saved were part of Masaki's lineage? "
--You know...it reminds me that Urahara would have had something to do with it too...he only left soul society 100yrs ago. and, i BET the story he gives to RUkia about what happened is not the REAL story. It would not surprise me that Isshin may have had something to do with it. We know that Utikake and Shunsui were the first two captains...Mayuri obviously came 100yrs ago ....and the rest we don't know how long they have been in their posts..oh! wait...Rukia said that when she came into the Kuchiki clan it was about 50yrs ago and she also stated that Byakuya "shortly before" that became a captain. Perhaps, Isshin was the head of that one..

now, thinking about Mayuri only be in for 100yrs....really does not fit in with Uryuu's story of his grandfather. For, it would make his grandfather SUPER old, neh? this also PROVES that quincies DID go into hiding. If they were annihilated 200yrs ago, Mayuri comes in 100yrs ago and Souken looks like he was killed when Uryuu was about 9. so, this would mean that Souken CAME from a SURVIVING QUIncy line that was under the radars. OR there is something different in the aging of the quincies? how else to explain it? unless......Kubo-san sucks at math...or didn't realise his numbers don't match...

Hogyoku prophecy and downfall of Central 46?

[eido.livejournal.com]

i BET the story he gives to RUkia about what happened is not the REAL story.

Or it's not the complete story or it's told in half-truths. It is still possible the Quincy's actions - namely their stubborness - might have brought on the apocalypse as per the "official" explanation seems to dictate. Then again, that's not to say the Soul Society might not have also had other motives for wanting the Quincy exterminated (per our numerous speculations). Unfortunately, with the more I see of Soul Society (and how negligent, incompetent, over-confident and/or corrupt some sectors are), the more likely I think that may be the case.

Hell, we can't be totally sure how much of that "official" explanation (Quincy's obstinance forced the Shinigami into the extermination) is the truth in the first place. All there seems to be is the Shinigami word for it (The Quincy living now may also not have any other version of the story besides the one the Shinigami themselves have been told). It does seem very fishy. Negotiation was *that* impossible? The Shinigami couldn't have lowered the Quincy spiritual powers? I just find it hard to believe there was absolutely no other way besides genocide.

It would not surprise me that Isshin may have had something to do with it.

I kind of see him possibly something like Roy Mustang back then faced with the orders to murder Winry's parents... Isshin, so devastated by his "orders", he could barely deal with it. However, possibly unlike Roy, Isshin may not have been able to go through with his orders, or at least not try to do something to make up for what he did, even if he did go through with them. I do see Isshin as the rebellious type and he may have tried to save some of the Quincy, under the radar of his supervisors.

Also, if Masaki is indeed a Quincy or Quincy-descendant and Isshin likely knew it... he may have married her - apart from being in love with her, I do think he was - to get revenge against Central 46. If he was a Shinigami during the Quincy massacre and strongly opposed that decision... Isshin eventually marrying/procreating with a Quincy, he was doing the very thing his former supervisors feared the most (and they would have no idea at all their worst fear was coming true).

Of course, very hypotethetically speaking here... if there was a prophecy basically stating that the result of combining Quincy/Shinigami powers would eventually lead to the destruction of either Soul Society or Central 46? That prophecy seems to have come true. Central 46 has been destroyed. Except it wasn't actually Ichigo (aka, in theory, the physical result of a Quincy/Shinigami procreation and likely what Central 46 was most afraid of) who destroyed Central 46.... it was Shinigami, Aizen (aided by Gin and Tousen), who wanted the Hogyoku - and total power - for himself. What is the Hogyoku, per our theories? It's a creation of Urahara's that by combining Shinigami and Quincy powers releases Hollow abilities. Which means Central 46's extermination of the Quincy 200 years ago was apparently for nothing.... they *were* destroyed anyway AND due to a Quincy/Shinigami mixing, but *not* the mixing they were expecting.

However, it's also ironic, Aizen made his move on Central 46 upon the advent of Ichigo - the natural Hogyoku (in theory) - invading Soul Society. So, one could say, Ichigo *and* the Hogyoku announced the prophecied downfall of Central 46. Ichigo's appearance distracted the Shinigami and thus gave Aizen the time he needed to finalize his plans in taking the Hogyoku. Aizen wouldn't have been able to do what he did *without* Ichigo (and Rukia meeting Ichigo, thus Urahara gave her that gigai and the embedded Hogyuko inside it, etc etc). Ichigo and the Hogyoku... both the keys to this (hypothetical) prophecy and downfall of Central 46.

Re: Hogyoku prophecy and downfall of Central 46?

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Negotiation was *that* impossible? The Shinigami couldn't have lowered the Quincy spiritual powers? I just find it hard to believe there was absolutely no other way besides genocide."
--totally agree.


"Aizen wouldn't have been able to do what he did *without* Ichigo (and Rukia meeting Ichigo, thus Urahara gave her that gigai and the embedded Hogyuko inside it, etc etc). Ichigo and the Hogyoku... both the keys to this (hypothetical) prophecy and downfall of Central 46."
--huh...this is interesting. It still is a bit fuzzy though, how Aizen WAS able to massacre them all. They seem to be a pretty tightly enforced and protected faction of Soul Society.
And, i think Aizen's past, if Kubo decides to give back-story on that, will be so intriguing. NOt to mention, may also tied in some of the other taichos and how they came about and factioned off.

Re: Hogyoku prophecy and downfall of Central 46?

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Negotiation was *that* impossible? The Shinigami couldn't have lowered the Quincy spiritual powers? I just find it hard to believe there was absolutely no other way besides genocide."
--totally agree.


"Aizen wouldn't have been able to do what he did *without* Ichigo (and Rukia meeting Ichigo, thus Urahara gave her that gigai and the embedded Hogyuko inside it, etc etc). Ichigo and the Hogyoku... both the keys to this (hypothetical) prophecy and downfall of Central 46."
--huh...this is interesting. It still is a bit fuzzy though, how Aizen WAS able to massacre them all. They seem to be a pretty tightly enforced and protected faction of Soul Society.
And, i think Aizen's past, if Kubo decides to give back-story on that, will be so intriguing. NOt to mention, may also tied in some of the other taichos and how they came about and factioned off.

Re: QUicny Past

[eido.livejournal.com]

now, thinking about Mayuri only be in for 100yrs....really does not fit in with Uryuu's story of his grandfather. For, it would make his grandfather SUPER old, neh?

I figure Mayuri may have been conducting experiments possibly not only on those who died in the genocide... which could be where a good portion of those 2661 Quincy guinea pigs came from. By the time he became Captain, Quincy were already almost extinct and when a Quincy was being attacked by some Hollow, he bribed the Shinigami to bring the souls to him. Which has apparently been going on for a 100 years.... and Central 46 never caught onto this? That either proves the Shinigami's incredible negligence or they knew what Mayuri was doing and let him do it (this would be a convenient way to get rid of the rest of the Quincy... and if any of the other Captains got word of what was going on, Central 46 could have merely used Mayuri as a scapegoat).

this also PROVES that quincies DID go into hiding. If they were annihilated 200yrs ago

Mayuri said he'd experimented on 2661 Quincy (that number might include some who died in the genocide). I could imagine maybe, in an act of mercy, the Shinigami didn't wipe out the Quincy children or possibly some (like Moses) were sent into hiding before the battle. Thus could explain how some Quincy survived the slaughter. Not that it did them any good, with Mayuri around.

Mayuri comes in 100yrs ago and Souken looks like he was killed when Uryuu was about 9. so, this would mean that Souken CAME from a SURVIVING QUIncy line that was under the radars.

This would have to be the case, since Quincy age like humans from all we're told.

Mayuri vs. Urahara

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"That either proves the Shinigami's incredible negligence or they knew what Mayuri was doing and let him do it"
--huh. so true.

i still don't see how Mayur experimented on so many quincys...unless. seeing he WAS in Urahara's squad, during the annihilation. He could have foreseably been put in charge, so Urahara would not have to have his hands in it? I am thinking back about Urahara's retelling of the tale..there was a bit of "shame" and "uneasiness" in his demeanor. I just wonder if he was forced to go through with it, and seeing as he would not have his hands LITERALLY tied into the genocide.."out of sight, out of mind sorta thing". And, a part of me wonders..maybe, just maybe Mayuri, being under Urahara's command (and resenting it) may have let some of Urahara's information about the Hyougoku "leak" to the Central 46. Mayuri having his own desire to be captain and get rid of Urahara once and for all.

Re: Mayuri vs. Urahara

[eido.livejournal.com]

i still don't see how Mayur experimented on so many quincys...unless. seeing he WAS in Urahara's squad, during the annihilation.

That's unfortunately what I figured.



Although Mayuri's reaction to Aizen's betrayal is an interesting one. He pretty much didn't seem to care at all. This is kind of a disturbing thought, but what if Mayuri's "leak" was just another part of this greater scheme of Urahara's? That Urahara was and has been playing Mayuri as well as Aizen? If Mayuri was working under Urahara's jurisdiction... considering how knowledged Urahara seems to be... I'd have a hard time imagining little of what Mayuri did went unnoticed by Urahara. Including, unfortunately, what he might have been doing to some of those Quincy (only because I like Urahara and had he condoned everything Mayuri did to the Quincy it would make Urahara pretty much completely irredeemable... it could be when Urahara was in charge, the Quincy experiments or studies were much more benign or voluntary. However, when Mayuri took over and left unchecked, he threw humanity out the window. That 2661 number could have mostly mounted *after* Urahara's exile. Although there still might have been experiments done while Urahara was still there. In that I include the Quincy as a major portion of the Hogyoku creation, there would have had to be some kind of resource or data that led Urahara ultimately to his creation).

Maybe Mayuri didn't care what happened to Aizen because he knew Aizen's "Hogyoku" coup was just one part of a grander (Urahara's) plan... or that there's some flaw with the Hogyoku which Mayuri - as possible member of (and Urahara) knows, but Aizen does not?

Re: Mayuri vs. Urahara

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

i dunno if Urahara really meant for his Hyougoku to get into Aizen's hand...however, I remember Urahara said to Yoruichi that they started out on the "losing" side of things, and it seems now, with their "group" that things are starting to move in "their favour". Now, i think this may have to do with Urahara's moral sense..in some regard. I believe Aizen when he said that Urahara did not want the hyougoku to get into the wrong hands and tried to hids it and destory it.NOW< this is not to say that he also used Rukia as an experiment to see what would happen to her if she would have awakended that Hyougoku inside of her. Maybe that was Urahara's intention somehow...to start his own "army" to bring down the "injustice" and "immorality" of soul society. in a way, we do not really know what the corruption is in soul society. I guess Mayuri, in a way, is a hint to some of the darker side of it.

What really struck me..was how Soul Society was supposed to be there to help guide souls to Soul Society...but then they just leave them there to rot and fend for themselves...right? there is this real play on the ideal of a "feudal" system and unfair and sheltered lives of the "masses". Look how shinigami lead a more "fulfilling" life than anyone in the outer districts. There is some of that Meiji era politics that seem to float about here.

anyhoo...i think that Urahara, from the way the manga is going, obviously wants to stop Aizen , but for what..we don't know....to get back the hyougoku? i am sure that is a wee part of it...but knowing Urahara there is mor to it.

what also struck me is how Utikake tells Ichigo that he is the "saviour" of soul society. From the looks of what happened..he did not save it, but rather opened their eyes to the truth of what is going on? utikake and shunsui, being the "oldest" captains, talked about that sense of justice. and how they felt soul society was to teach them to follow the justice that is in their hearts. Yet, yamaji seemed to believe otherwise. I think they both (shun & uti) were awakened at that moment. And, Ichigo drove the nail into the coffin. I just can't wait to see the captains make their return...though, i don't know if they will be able to fight..unless Ichigo maybe awakens some kind of strength in the other captains that help them overcome aizen's plot?

gah! sorry for the diaherrea of the mouth there. ^___^;;;

isshin mission

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Isshin falls in love with her and decides to marry her, despite the risk. However, as to protect her from the eyes of Soul Society (knowing what Central 46 would do if they found out what she was), he fakes his death, gets one of those untraceable gigai from Urahara and hides in the human world with his beautiful new (secret Quincy-descended) wife."
__ i definitely think it is safe to say, at this point, that there is SOMETHING "Forbidden" about Isshin and Masaki's union. HIs hiding and then coming out as a shinigami gives us that story hint that something happened that made Isshin go into hiding. it makes it soo exciting.
and, Masaki..she is soo beautiful. ANd, the way Isshin loves her so passionately, even after death...is incredible. It makes him even sexier.

as far as the untraceable gigai..i don;t think Isshin is in one. If you remember, Aizen explains that the untraceable Gigai actually disintegrates the shinigami's power and soul restoring them to a normal human. THis is why he was banned, and explained to RUkia why she was having trouble "working" the gigai and felt her powers weaking. Isshin appears to have not lost any ability as a shinigami. ANd, again, we don't know the story..my guess is that he may have been banned like Urahara..not being able to return to Soul Society. Either way...he was in Cahoots with Urahara somehow. ^____^

Re: isshin mission

[eido.livejournal.com]

i definitely think it is safe to say, at this point, that there is SOMETHING "Forbidden" about Isshin and Masaki's union. HIs hiding and then coming out as a shinigami gives us that story hint that something happened that made Isshin go into hiding. it makes it soo exciting.

His need to hide may have also been compounded if - as I mentioned in one of these recent replies - he KNEW Central 46 was terrified of the result of a Quincy/Shinigami union. He was doing the very thing they were afraid of... and he may have been doing it purposefully. Getting revenge on his former superiors for the Quincy genocide maybe (the genocide which he'd witnessed and couldn't stop)?

What's unfortunate is that - possibly - Urahara may have been a Captain or at least a high ranking officer along with Isshin during the Quincy genocide. Urahara might not have agreed to Central 46's decision anymore than Isshin may have. That could be when they formed a special alliance/friendship.... one they still have, even now. An alliance that may be leading to one day take down Soul Society or make them face their crimes? Isshin and Urahara mention they're preparing for battle... did they mean just the Arrancar and Aizen.... or something much, much bigger? Urahara and Isshin (and Yoruichi, Tessai, etc) may have been planning all along something that may undermine or thwart Soul Society... specifically because they believe (perhaps with good reason), having worked closely in the inner-circle and high positions of power in SS and seeing firsthand how truly corrupt and utterly inefficient it is, Soul Society should not be in power any longer or it's time for a new order. Not Aizen's order... Aizen may merely be a means to a particular (inevitable) end. An end Urahara, Isshin and close friends have been aiding along it's way.

as far as the untraceable gigai..i don;t think Isshin is in one.

Or if he's got one, it's a modified version Urahara made just for him or it was only Rukia's Hogyoku gigai that would have turned her into a human. Isshin's gigai... untraceable yet doesn't dull the Shinigami abilities?

Re: isshin mission

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Urahara might not have agreed to Central 46's decision anymore than Isshin may have"
--soooo weird i was JUST thinking that and wrote about it to you under the "mayuri vs. Urahara" post. TOtally agree with you on that.

"Isshin and Urahara mention they're preparing for battle... did they mean just the Arrancar and Aizen.... or something much, much bigger?"
--hmmm...could be a combo of both. Maybe the Aizen thing just compounded it.

"Soul Society should not be in power any longer or it's time for a new order. Not Aizen's order... Aizen may merely be a means to a particular (inevitable) end. An end Urahara, Isshin and close friends have been aiding along it's way."
--hmmm...or i wonder if at some point, now this is way out there...if Aizen did not start with Urahara and Isshin, having his own intentions all along. all bonded by tha same belief that the SS needs a new change. Who knows....maybe Aizen set-up the dismissal of Urahara and Isshin, convinving the central 46 that their positions of rank are threatening to the very rules and existence of soul society.

"Or if he's got one, it's a modified version Urahara made just for him or it was only Rukia's Hogyoku gigai that would have turned her into a human. Isshin's gigai... untraceable yet doesn't dull the Shinigami abilities?"
-- i am sure Kubo-san will address this...soon enough..one hopes. ^____^

Re: isshin mission

[eido.livejournal.com]

hmmm...or i wonder if at some point, now this is way out there...if Aizen did not start with Urahara and Isshin, having his own intentions all along.

It's possible Isshin and Urahara knew exactly the sort of man Aizen was too, but that sort was needed in Urahara's and Isshin's ultimate designs? Isshin and Urahara knew or expected what Aizen was going to do all along? Thus why Isshin seems to know so much about Aizen and his means (creation of the Arrancar, etc)... he may not necessarily been told about the situation via Urahara, but they both knew all the time what Aizen was capable and what part he would play in the ultimate dissolve of Soul Society?

Of course, I'd really like to presume if Isshin and Urahara are expecting Soul Society to fall... they believe the world will go on even without Soul Society - the balancers - there OR there will be a new sort of "balancer" to replace the Shinigami?

Re: isshin mission

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Thus why Isshin seems to know so much about Aizen and his means (creation of the Arrancar, etc)... he may not necessarily been told about the situation via Urahara, but they both knew all the time what Aizen was capable and what part he would play in the ultimate dissolve of Soul Society?"
--i have to re-read those chapters....i need to download the older volumes....it always helps to reveal info that may have been misse dthe first time reading.

I agree that Isshin & urahara saw the "corruption" in soul society, though i do think their intentions were honorable ones...whereas Aizen's were more for world domination, neh?

"Of course, I'd really like to presume if Isshin and Urahara are expecting Soul Society to fall... they believe the world will go on even without Soul Society - the balancers - there OR there will be a new sort of "balancer" to replace the Shinigami?"
--Aizen talks about that "mew world order" (eerily makes me wonder how much Kubo is tying in the world's political atmosphere at present. that phrase reminds me soo much of George Bush Sr politcal manifesto --ech!). Maybe Urahara and Isshin did see the world of the shinigami needing a more balanced and harmonized structure and perhaps, Urahara's hyougoku was hopefully a way to createa a better balance. And, it reminds me that rukia said all hollows were orginally human souls...and that when the Shinigami "kill" them all they do is purify teir sould and return them to soul society. Now, i would think that not all hoollow souls do go to soul society, but also to the gates of hell...like that one hollow. Which explains why the arrancar can take part of their human form back...which also means that the arrancar too have their own human past...i wonder how that will play into the scheme of things.

And, we don't know much about Hiraku and their ganga..only that they are human/hollow hybrids too....but, i wonder if Urahara may have had his hand in that..maybe he WAS starting to create a group to start a new world order..and, along with Isshin and Yoruichi, were just waiting for the right time.


am i babblin again?

Re: isshin mission

[eido.livejournal.com]

maybe Aizen set-up the dismissal of Urahara and Isshin, convinving the central 46 that their positions of rank are threatening to the very rules and existence of soul society.

Something else that's bugged me is how or why Aizen has let Urahara live. Is just arrogant negligence (believing Urahara & Isshin are no threats to him now that he has the Hogyoku)? Or has he let Urahara live for some other reason?

It could be Aizen is a part of Urahara's plans, but not a knowing part. Like your speculation with Mayuri accidentally letting information 'slip' to Central 46 about the Hogyoku... Urahara might have let 'slip' Hogyoku info to Aizen, knowing how frightening and power-hungry Aizen always was deep down (and he would one day make a move for the Hogyoku). It could be Mayuri was used for Cen46 *as well as* Aizen. Urahara knew Mayuri was going to betray him for the Captaincy... Mayuri's "slip" may have functioned to inform Central 46 about the Hogyoku (thus forcing Urahara into exile and Isshin eventually into hiding), but inform Aizen of it as well. Thus both Mayuri AND Aizen play right into Urahara's hands.... all for the eventual downfall of or cataclysmic changes in Soul Society?

Re: isshin mission

[mrs-urahara.livejournal.com]

"Something else that's bugged me is how or why Aizen has let Urahara live. Is just arrogant negligence (believing Urahara & Isshin are no threats to him now that he has the Hogyoku)? "
---I think he DOES think he is more powerful and smarter than isshin or Urahara... what a bakamono!

"Thus both Mayuri AND Aizen play right into Urahara's hands.... all for the eventual downfall of or cataclysmic changes in Soul Society?"
--totally think so. You know, is that not akin to the world situation now? look at katrina? it takes these BIG "catastrophic" events for the "lay" people to wake up and really see what is truly going on. I am sure Urahara felt, in some way, that this kind of event had to happen. that's what bothered me about Urahara leaving how to extract the Hyougoku, but not how to make it...it's like he LET them have that information...he knew Aizen's power lust was sooo great that he figured he would let him retrieve it, and therey exposing the truth about Soul Society. Also, it shows to me, that even though Urahara may be a bit "secretive" and can have his own reasons for doing things...i think he still has a heart. The fact that he created the way to remove the Hyougoku without disturbing the soul or the gigai proves his humanity. moreso than Aizne. I am sure, nby the end of it, Aizen will take out some of his own, if he finds them unecessary in his meglomaniacal mind. I also have this eery suspicion that some of the arrancar MAY turn against him and join Ichigo.

i think the blond guy may be the first...just my really FAR OUT, WILD SPECULATIVE hunch.