new fandom + the quincy key
Mar. 18th, 2006 08:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
retro_eidasJust when I can't possibly be barraged with yet another fandom... another comes along of course. Within a few months, "Firefly" infected me like the plague. Then SGA came along. The newest edition to obsessive-compulsive speculating insanity? Bleach. For the non-otaku and/or minus a DLing fetish, you might not be familiar with this slice of fanon and thus this entry will mean absolutely nothing. However, it's the current hot item in anime... and my soul is all but it's bitch at the moment.
Also special thanks to new friends![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
_debbiechan_ and mrs_urahara that propagate the :cough:hot Quincy:cough: speculating madness. Since I can't seem to join a fandom without being able to nerdily speculate about it ad infinitum, I'm not sure these poor folks realize what they've gotten themselves into. If either of you bother to read this, I apologize. A lot of it will be retread from bits of our "Significant Filler" discussion over at ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
soul_society.
"The person who will protect this era... A Quincy is this key person." (not verbatim)
Oh the ridiculous amount of questions that statement has made for me... but it makes the sad, sad fangirl tingly in more naughty parts than I'd care to admit.
What exactly did Yoshino mean by a Quincy being "the key to save this era"? How do the Bound know this piece of information? Sounds like the makings of an impending prophecy reveal to me. Ishida part of some massive Bound prophecy... or just a prophecy in general? Something not necessarily limited to the Bound? Ryuuken? Souken? The Quincy (at least prior their genocide)? Perhaps more importantly (and scarily), the Shinigami?
Entirely hypotheticaly speaking... if the (or some... I'd say, Aizen and probably some or all of deceased Central 46) of the Shinigami are aware of this speculated prophecy regarding the Quincy and if the nature of the prophecy were threatening/apocalyptic/universe-altering/etc etc enough... What kind of precautions might they have taken? We already know now what they're capable of regarding those damn obstinate Quincy, so stubborn and proud to the point of imbalancing and threatening the end of the world they had to be permanently removed from the equation (or so we're told)... could they be capable of much more? Taking a look at Aizen, Gin and Mayuri... or hell, even those with 'good' intentions as Tousen, Yamamoto, Hinamori, Urahara and Byakuya... I'm truthfully afraid of the full extent of things they're capable of (whether it's willfully or unintentionally... by duty, honor, curiosity, misplaced justice or manipulation). Whatever their intentions. Who watches the Watchmen, indeed.
Was Mayuri purely satisfying his own insatiably sick curiousity regarding all his (apparently, mass amounts of) Quincy experiments? Or was there something more to it than that? Was he also going by orders? Orders from whom?
Was the Quincy Extermination of 200 years ago really unavoidable? Furthermore, if the extermination was such a "hard" decision as Rukia was told (via Urahara presumedly)... why or how did Mayuri get access to desecrate so many (I believe the number ranged around 1600+) Quincy for the sake of his experiments? Was he just that sly he could abscond with that many souls and go unnoticed? He doesn't seem to take much tact in keeping the Quincy experiments a secret if they're supposed to be secret (hell, he apparently carried around a memento on his person of at least one of the his favorite test subjects... Uryuu's grandfather/sensei, Souken) and he was talking about said experiments openly in Soul Society. Cpt. Kyouraku's departing comments to him in ep71 would also make me lean towards Mayuri's hobbies not necessarily secrets (and what does Kyouraku and possibly the other Shinigami know exactly about those hobbies?). I do unfortunately find it hard to believe the Shinigami didn't have some general idea what was happening to those Quincy. If Ryuuken has any kind of fuel in reigniting Uryuu's hatred of the Death Gods, this probably would be his coup de grace.
In regards to the above paragraph... one could speculate every action Ryuuken has taken was in part of some greater purpose, one that he believes (as did Souken?) is destined for Uryuu.
What exactly did Urahara do that was so bad that led to his exile from Soul Society? Particularly considering some of Mengele-taicho's hobbies (and he isn't only still partaking in said hobbies, but is the current 12th Division Captain. The frickin' promoted him. Jesus). What did he do that was so much worse than what Mayuri has done/is doing? Sure the Hogyoku could be bad enough. However... I do wonder if Mayuri has friends in very high places. He may not have ascended intoHellHeaven a la Aizen, but another compadre perhaps?
I'm also wondering if Urahara's exile was so involuntary as it sounds. The word "exile" tends to exclaim 'involuntary', of course and I don't doubt it was completely serious and all forcible on the part of Shinigami's ruling body ... but I can't help but wonder just a little 'self-imposed' might factor in as well? Ditto Tessai (who I'd bet anything was Urahara's koutaicho), Yoriuchi and Isshin. I mean to say, Urahara might not have completely regretted leaving. Urahara, possibly Tessai, Yoriuchi and Isshin... all were in *high* positions of power. Until they were just... not anymore. Could it be they may have learned some very dirty and very ugly secrets about SS and wanted to leave (in utter moral disagreement and possibly in fear of their lives. Loose lips sinkhellheaven-bound ships, after all)? Yoruichi took it all a step further and was apparently all but *dead* to the Shinigami for a CENTURY. Since I don't follow the manga as closely as I probably should... I'd guess Isshin also possibly faked his death (my guess? Kenpachi believes he'd killed him. Isshin just screams former 11th Division taicho to me).
And on an entirely unrelated venue... what the hell is Cpt. Komamura? Unfortunate recipient of a high level demon spell gone bad? Youkai? Possibly more likely, a hanyou (he seems to have a similar sort of shame/angst as young Inuyasha did. Consequence of a taboo youkai/human union... and made to feel that way most of his life, up until meeting Commander Yamamoto and Tousen)?
Also special thanks to new friends
_debbiechan_ and mrs_urahara that propagate the :cough:hot Quincy:cough: speculating madness. Since I can't seem to join a fandom without being able to nerdily speculate about it ad infinitum, I'm not sure these poor folks realize what they've gotten themselves into. If either of you bother to read this, I apologize. A lot of it will be retread from bits of our "Significant Filler" discussion over at soul_society.Oh the ridiculous amount of questions that statement has made for me... but it makes the sad, sad fangirl tingly in more naughty parts than I'd care to admit.
What exactly did Yoshino mean by a Quincy being "the key to save this era"? How do the Bound know this piece of information? Sounds like the makings of an impending prophecy reveal to me. Ishida part of some massive Bound prophecy... or just a prophecy in general? Something not necessarily limited to the Bound? Ryuuken? Souken? The Quincy (at least prior their genocide)? Perhaps more importantly (and scarily), the Shinigami?
Entirely hypotheticaly speaking... if the (or some... I'd say, Aizen and probably some or all of deceased Central 46) of the Shinigami are aware of this speculated prophecy regarding the Quincy and if the nature of the prophecy were threatening/apocalyptic/universe-altering/etc etc enough... What kind of precautions might they have taken? We already know now what they're capable of regarding those damn obstinate Quincy, so stubborn and proud to the point of imbalancing and threatening the end of the world they had to be permanently removed from the equation (or so we're told)... could they be capable of much more? Taking a look at Aizen, Gin and Mayuri... or hell, even those with 'good' intentions as Tousen, Yamamoto, Hinamori, Urahara and Byakuya... I'm truthfully afraid of the full extent of things they're capable of (whether it's willfully or unintentionally... by duty, honor, curiosity, misplaced justice or manipulation). Whatever their intentions. Who watches the Watchmen, indeed.
Was Mayuri purely satisfying his own insatiably sick curiousity regarding all his (apparently, mass amounts of) Quincy experiments? Or was there something more to it than that? Was he also going by orders? Orders from whom?
Was the Quincy Extermination of 200 years ago really unavoidable? Furthermore, if the extermination was such a "hard" decision as Rukia was told (via Urahara presumedly)... why or how did Mayuri get access to desecrate so many (I believe the number ranged around 1600+) Quincy for the sake of his experiments? Was he just that sly he could abscond with that many souls and go unnoticed? He doesn't seem to take much tact in keeping the Quincy experiments a secret if they're supposed to be secret (hell, he apparently carried around a memento on his person of at least one of the his favorite test subjects... Uryuu's grandfather/sensei, Souken) and he was talking about said experiments openly in Soul Society. Cpt. Kyouraku's departing comments to him in ep71 would also make me lean towards Mayuri's hobbies not necessarily secrets (and what does Kyouraku and possibly the other Shinigami know exactly about those hobbies?). I do unfortunately find it hard to believe the Shinigami didn't have some general idea what was happening to those Quincy. If Ryuuken has any kind of fuel in reigniting Uryuu's hatred of the Death Gods, this probably would be his coup de grace.
In regards to the above paragraph... one could speculate every action Ryuuken has taken was in part of some greater purpose, one that he believes (as did Souken?) is destined for Uryuu.
What exactly did Urahara do that was so bad that led to his exile from Soul Society? Particularly considering some of Mengele-taicho's hobbies (and he isn't only still partaking in said hobbies, but is the current 12th Division Captain. The frickin' promoted him. Jesus). What did he do that was so much worse than what Mayuri has done/is doing? Sure the Hogyoku could be bad enough. However... I do wonder if Mayuri has friends in very high places. He may not have ascended into
I'm also wondering if Urahara's exile was so involuntary as it sounds. The word "exile" tends to exclaim 'involuntary', of course and I don't doubt it was completely serious and all forcible on the part of Shinigami's ruling body ... but I can't help but wonder just a little 'self-imposed' might factor in as well? Ditto Tessai (who I'd bet anything was Urahara's koutaicho), Yoriuchi and Isshin. I mean to say, Urahara might not have completely regretted leaving. Urahara, possibly Tessai, Yoriuchi and Isshin... all were in *high* positions of power. Until they were just... not anymore. Could it be they may have learned some very dirty and very ugly secrets about SS and wanted to leave (in utter moral disagreement and possibly in fear of their lives. Loose lips sink
And on an entirely unrelated venue... what the hell is Cpt. Komamura? Unfortunate recipient of a high level demon spell gone bad? Youkai? Possibly more likely, a hanyou (he seems to have a similar sort of shame/angst as young Inuyasha did. Consequence of a taboo youkai/human union... and made to feel that way most of his life, up until meeting Commander Yamamoto and Tousen)?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 10:16 am (UTC)And oh don't worry about obsessing. You're among obsessives.
My only hope is that the Bound/Quincy arc isn't isolated in the anime and continues to add flavor to the manga. I do think Souken had a prophecy of his own--and when Ryuuken's backstory is revealed that all will come to light. Did Ryuuken "sacrifice" his own Quincy power in order to protect Uryuu?
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO URYUU'S MOTHER?
Someone else I know came up with the odd theory that Ryuuken and Isshin were both in love with the human Masaki (to echo the Orihime Ichigo Isshin triange), and although I doubt that one, it begs for fic. In any event, I'm sure Ryuuken and Isshin were long-ago enemies, and that Ichigo and Uryuu will somehow re-enact their rivalry and heal it.
I'm fulling expecting an Ishida fights Hollow!Ichigo battle.
I expect that Komamura's state will be explained eventually--although I'm so used to talking dogs, cats, floating eggplants in anime that it doesn't really worry me yet...
I'm impatient for Tatsuki to get powers and curious as to what they will be.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 03:38 pm (UTC)"_debbiechan_ and mrs_urahara that propagate the :cough:hot Quincy:cough: speculating madness. Since I can't seem to join a fandom without being able to nerdily speculate about it ad infinitum, I'm not sure these poor folks realize what they've gotten themselves into. If either of you bother to read this, I apologize. A lot of it will be retread from bits of our "Significant Filler" discussion over at soul_society."
I cannot express the magnitude of my elation at discovering two Bleach Otakus..my age...and into dissecting this great manga. (god knows i cannot count the number of literary and visual arts theory courses i took in my past...not to mention philospy..and OF COURSE an Asian minor)..I am sure we are all soul-sistas seperated at birth.
don't worry about repitition...let's face it. ..the mods at LJ SS don't like posts to go on for too long. best we bring our intellectual dissertations elsewhere, neh?
AND, lastly....i'll have to address the INCREDIBLE insights you bring up a post at a time. My head is reeling and excited at the entire prospect...
therefore..more to come. ^____^
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 03:45 pm (UTC)HEH-HEH. Ain't that the TRUTH!!!
"Someone else I know came up with the odd theory that Ryuuken and Isshin were both in love with the human Masaki (to echo the Orihime Ichigo Isshin triange), and although I doubt that one, it begs for fic. In any event, I'm sure Ryuuken and Isshin were long-ago enemies, and that Ichigo and Uryuu will somehow re-enact their rivalry and heal it."
HOLY CRAP!!! where do i start with THAT one!!! TOTALLY think there is something about Masaki..and i think it goes BEYOND Isshin & Ryuuken. I was ALWAYS curious as to WHY the Grand Fisher "chose" Masaki as a bate. I don't think it was random. AND< the way that the grand fisher TARGETS the Kurosaki family. I think Masaki is a bigger character than is lead to believe. Sometimes, i wish that there would be a movie (and hoping Kubo will address this somewhere in the arc) about their past.
I dunno...but my bets are placed on Masaki having either some kind of shinigami/quincy or other major power as to yet be named. *ahhh...isshin/masaki LOVE* (drools)
"I'm impatient for Tatsuki to get powers and curious as to what they will be"
I am slightly apt to think it will be brought out in a "protecting" Orihime event. I deem, tatsuki, still holds a feeling of "weakness" as to not being able to protect Orihime when she was fighting the female version of Sigmund the seamonster. ;P
oooo..spidey senses tingling at the prospect of this GREAT thread we have started. ^___^
can you say...endless repoire?
1st paragraph: quincy key
Date: 2006-03-19 08:38 pm (UTC)anyhoo..again, apologies up front if this is all verbal diaharrea...and thus ..I begin...
"What exactly did Yoshino mean by a Quincy being "the key to save this era"? How do the Bound know this piece of information? Sounds like the makings of an impending prophecy reveal to me. Ishida part of some massive Bound prophecy... or just a prophecy in general? Something not necessarily limited to the Bound? Ryuuken? Souken? The Quincy (at least prior their genocide)? Perhaps more importantly (and scarily), the Shinigami?"
hmm, my thoughts seem to steer more toward that it has to do with the bound tunnel thing( how they can create a large influxs of souls from the "human" world to the hollow world, thus creating a "hollow buffet" ). Urahara always talked about Quincies keeping the balance, but then as they started to just rid of the souls, it caused an imbalance.
I also really can't see it playing into the overall manga storyline, unless I know that Kubo-san has his hands in it...the other option is that, depending on how the arrancar arc proceeds, it may be the kind of "filler arc" that will appear as filler eps when the arrancar arc airs.( God let it be soon).
I am being a bit of a purist, and hopeful, here when i say that my first inclination is to believe it has to do with 1. the bound "legacy" and, 2. Ishida opening up to the prospect that he CAN get his powers back.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 08:48 pm (UTC)--AIzen explained what got Urahara exiled, remember? It was a couple illegal actions 1st it was the kind of Gigais he was making (the one that Rukia's soul occupied) and second was his Hyoukyou(sp?)
"However... I do wonder if Mayuri has friends in very high places. He may not have ascended into HellHeaven a la Aizen, but another compadre perhaps?"
---i may repeat myself from the thread lurking in LJ's SS. Koruoumaru (sp? the blind captain) stated how captains attain that status. NOw, I may be a bit rusty with it..but here it goes:
First, he said that Yamaji (general commander. IT's the name SHusnui gives him and I LURV it) has to nominate or appoint them. Only two have got in that way: Shunsui and Utikake. second, they have to defeat the current captain with all others in the squas being witness to it. Only one got in that way: Kenpachi. Lastly, they have to be nominated by 4 residing squad captains and voted by the rest. SO, that's how everyone else got in. My thought is, that Mayuri could have been nominated by Aizen, Gin, Komamurablahblah, who thereby convinces Tousen. just a speculation.
^___^
big boo boo~~o
Date: 2006-03-19 08:51 pm (UTC)paragraph 3
Date: 2006-03-19 09:08 pm (UTC)--DEFINITELY!!! I think that Urahara's exile was part voluntary. He did not want to leave the Hyouku there in soul society to get in the wrong hands. so, the safest thing he could do was flee. . . but, at the same time...Aizne said that Urahara left ALL his lab data in soul society...it's a bit weird. Urahara leaves the info on how to extract thing, but doesn't leave the info on how to make it? and, if it was part self-exile, why would he leave it behind? that's my question.
"Ditto Tessai (who I'd bet anything was Urahara's koutaicho), Yoriuchi and Isshin. I mean to say, Urahara might not have completely regretted leaving. Urahara, possibly Tessai, Yoriuchi and Isshin... all were in *high* positions of power. Until they were just... not anymore."
--dang gurl!! you are onto something. loving all this...now, as far as Tessai is concerned, i am more apt to think that tessai, ururu and Jinta are all some forms of gigais. With the appearance of Isshin in a shinigami, i know there is this debate on whether the insignia and the 'alleged' wrap on his arm could be a "torn" captain's cloak. Could he have been a fukutaicho..or a taicho? Now, interestingly, we would have to know some of the other taicho historys, neh? and, moreoever, if he WERE a taicho..how is it that Ichigo's last name does not ring bells, the way the mentio of urahara's does? or maybe, it is because it's a common name, so nothing really flags anyone's concern.
I am also inclined to think that Isshin's leaving may have something to do with Masaki, too. AND< if i remember, Urahara, when Isshin appears to fight the grand fisher notes that it's been "20 yrs" (or something akin to that) since he has used his shinigami powers. Did isshin leave 100 yrs ago with Urahara and Youruichi? or, was it more recent? did he leave because he fell in love with Isshin (which may tie to RUkia and Ichigo's "love" if that does blossom)? AND, if it WAS only 20yrs ago...wouldn't that mean that Rukia would recognise him??
personally, as far as Yoruichi is concerned, I think she left because she is in love with Urahara and would follow him to the ends of the earth. They have known each other since childhood, so I think either he is like a "brother" to her or a Lover. my vote is for the latter. ;P
"Could it be they may have learned some very dirty and very ugly secrets about SS and wanted to leave (in utter moral disagreement and possibly in fear of their lives. Loose lips sink hellheaven-bound ships, after all)? "
----oh. . . definitely agree...there are secrets upon secrets that have yet to be unveiled. You KNOW Urahara seems to know much more than he leads on to.(please kubo---give us solace)
"I'd guess Isshin also possibly faked his death (my guess? Kenpachi believes he'd killed him. Isshin just screams former 11th Division taicho to me)."
---hmmmmm.....interesting. See, I am more apt to think he was the head of the 4th division, seeing he is a doctor in the living world. Though, his constant testing Ichigo's strength would ring something of a juichi taicho behaviour. It would all depend on when Kenpachi became a taicho and when isshin left. Again, as stated above, urahara makes reference to him not being a shinigami in 20yrs...but 20yrs from what?(see above on the whole 20yr theory)
okay....woooT! having fun!!!!!! ^____^
next...
lastly...
Date: 2006-03-19 09:14 pm (UTC)COULD YOU IMAGINE IF he were a YOUKAI??? *special guest appeareance in next week's episode: Komamura's cousin comes to visit: Inuyasha". It's like cartoon-crossover..like when the jetsons and the flinstones met up..or what about laff-olympics?
It is weird how he is the only "animal" (some have called Kenpachi an animal, neh? heh-heh) in the squad. I don't know why. but, it also strikes me that he is a FOX..which plays into the powerful symbol that animal represents in many cultures mythology, neh?
okay....and there you have it...babble? insanity? demensia? possibly. ;P
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 11:05 pm (UTC)Thinking more on it, it might be not quite as difficult as it would seem to pull off either. After some likely chaotic attack from Kenpachi - possibly with the help of Urahara - Isshin manages to sneak away. Kenpachi can't sense reiatsu after all. Kenpachi might think he just obliterated Issh.
Something else I love... when Zangetsu appeared to Ichigo after getting his ass handed to him the first time via Kenpachi. Zangetsu walked right past Ken, side-to-side... I noticed both their flowing attire was ragged and wartorn at the edges (yet the two going in different directions illustrated their polarity). Putting a certain similitude between both figures, even if their paths were literally in opposite directions.
I still wonder about the exact nature of zanpakuto and their various manifestations. I've considered the idea the swords may be something like soul prisons for those with insanely high reiatsu... penance and/or purgatory for some specific kind of crime or person/being. I wonder if Zangetsu might have formerly been a great King or Warlord or such. Possibly not human either. Also maybe connected to Masaki's lineage, but obviously these are all insanities based on nothing.
I address Komamura / Demon Magic below, but one of my random specs is that zanpakuto are special prisons for certain extremely powerful demons after the Shinigami defeated them (or believed they defeated them). The Shinigami's souls themselves used as the prisons (paralleling Rukia's soul used to hide Unahara's Hongoku) and the combined power manifests in their zanpakuto... thus both the zanpakuto and all their spells are as result of a soul-level hybridization with demon reiatsu. But again, basing that entirely on almost nothing.
My only hope is that the Bound/Quincy arc isn't isolated in the anime
Let's all hope so. With how significant this connection could be in the anime, in order to really give it weight it would have to eventually appear in the manga too imo. Especially if it does involve a main character as heavily as we've been speculating it does (Ishida's mother a Bound or connected to them).
I do think Souken had a prophecy of his own
Now that is a thought. Perhaps something only the elite of the Quincy knew that somehow survived the genocide (which leads me to another question of how the Ishidas managed to survive at all and for as long as they have. The Shinigami just not care about their meager existence knowing/believing they're of no consequence ... or were they allowed to live for other reasons?). Ryuuken may be the last who knows it ... but if there is a prophecy or at least some knowledge Ryuuken has (regarding Uryuu)... he may not interpret it necessarily the same way Souken did. God forbid Ryuuken falls more in line of the Aizen type mindset.
Did Ryuuken "sacrifice" his own Quincy power in order to protect Uryuu?
Perhaps, the least threatening he portrayed himself, the longer he might have been allowed to live... unless, again, the Ishidas were allowed to live (or were protected?) for some other reason.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 11:06 pm (UTC)Yet another pressing question. The slightly more practical side of me thinks she might have killed herself (even when she smiled she seemed like she was crying... manic depressive?). Whatever the case, thanks to ep71 it feels like major drama waiting to unleash.
I'm also slightly curious about Inoue's parents. Hollow!Sora's angsty proclamation that they abandoned them (leaving him to raise Orihime alone) seemed a tad anvilicious at the time... perhaps something we needed to remember for future reference?
Someone else I know came up with the odd theory that Ryuuken and Isshin were both in love with the human Masaki
Ooooh, nice. I hadn't considered that. I was wondering myself - c/o Isshin being a former Shinigami - if he knew Miyako or had some unrequitted love for her... possibly had a rivalry with Kaien for her affection. Yet possibly still managed to maintain a macho camaraderie (something like the current Ichigo and Renji). Unfortunately, I can't recall at the moment how far back Miyako and Kaien died (I want to say it was 50 years prior the start of the events of ep1, but I'm not even sure where I'm getting that number). As we know, Miyako (and Kaien) died getting in the way of one of Aizen's hollow experiments.
So... if Ryuuken and Isshin were vying for Masaki's affection (which could be used to add more weight to Masaki being special in her own right... Ryu and Issh both having supernatural abilities, namely able to sense reiatsu)... it might mirror a triangle between Issh - Miyako - Kaien. Isshin = Ishida Ryuuken, Miyako = Masaki, and Kaien = Human!Kurosaki Isshin.
There is at least a straggling possibility even in current canon - barring the significant supernatural elements to both characters and living in the same town - they might have known each other. Both are medical practitioners... they may have even gone to college / medical school together (which could be an ideal place for both to have met Masaki).
I expect that Komamura's state will be explained eventually--although I'm so used to talking dogs, cats, floating eggplants in anime that it doesn't really worry me yet...
The Shinigami's abundant use of Demon Magic also baffles me somewhat. When or how did they learn it? I suppose that could be one of those things that we may never find out or need to, but ... with Cpt. Komamura lurking around and Aizen with his god complex (wanting to "stand in Heaven")? I am wondering if youkai are something "Bleach" isn't going to touch or it's only a matter of time before we have talking dragons or giant wolves and such flying about.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-19 11:25 pm (UTC)Masaki is also one of my favorite mystery topics to dissect. I have a habit of adding a whole bunch of random crazy spec with little to no canon basis. ;) Everything from her being a natural Hogyoku (and I'll never know how to spell that I think), being Zangetsu's great-great-great-great...granddaughter, to being like Komamura but in entirely human form ... and any/all of those supernatural options hidden from the average human in the human world (but not hidden from the likes of the Shinigami, Quincy, Hollow, etc).
If Masaki were special, that would pile more layers onto what
Re: 1st paragraph: quincy key
Date: 2006-03-19 11:50 pm (UTC)I frickin' HATE when that happens! LJ has an Autosave Draft feature though, did you try hitting the back (or forward) button to see what happened?
hmm, my thoughts seem to steer more toward that it has to do with the bound tunnel thing.
That could definitely be. The Quincy Key may solely be referring to the immediate Jin/Bound threat. Why would Yoshino know about the issue with Aizen and the Shinigami troubles? Then again, we have characters like Urahara and Ryuuken who seem to know so much more and outside of the limits of their spheres than they let on... Is Jin's mission mostly self-serving or is he yet another part of the Aizen situation? A la the Arrancar/Vaizards in the manga.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 12:06 am (UTC)I did remember that, I was wondering - weighing what he did against what Mayuri has done / is doing - why were Urahara's crimes so severely punishable, yet apparently not quite so much for Mayuri? Mayuri wasn't only not punished as it would seem, but he was promoted. Doesn't look like he has any kind of restrictions at all on him (I assume there has to be *some* kind of SS Geneva Convention which would regulate Mayuri somewhat... but I can't recall hearing about it as yet). Methinks it has more to do to the threat Urahara placed on Soul Society itself, then any potential threat to other parties (although, again, the Hogyoku does sound quite dangerous for everyone ... and I'm lost at the spelling of Hogyoku myself, so we're both going to have to wing it. LOL). The very high-ups at Soul Society may not care too much how many Quincy Mayuri tortures and dissects... just as long as it doesn't effect them or their cushy positions of supreme power. Although, I admit I do love those utterly corrupt ruling body storylines (and the inevitable fall from grace... it seems for them it may have come in the form of an even more morally bankrupt, disturbed individual with an even bigger god complex in Aizen Sousuke).
First, he said that Yamaji (general commander. IT's the name SHusnui gives him and I LURV it) has to nominate or appoint them.
heee And I'd bet Shunsui had probably been calling him that since his school days.
they have to be nominated by 4 residing squad captains and voted by the rest. SO, that's how everyone else got in. My thought is, that Mayuri could have been nominated by Aizen, Gin, Komamurablahblah, who thereby convinces Tousen. just a speculation.
Or depending on when Kenpachi became Captain and who he got his nifty eyepatch from... if Mayuri tempted him with the eyepatch, that could be how Kenpachi's vote could have been swayed. Otherwise, your scenario is quite likely as well. We all see how devoted Komamura was/is to Tousen. Even now he thinks he can bring him back, by force if he has to. Tousen convincing Komamura to his opinion likely wouldn't have been a difficult task.
Re: paragraph 3
Date: 2006-03-20 12:48 am (UTC)Maybe it was confiscated from him before he could do anything about it, then again if that information had not been left behind, Aizen wouldn't have had any other option but to kill the Hogyoku bearer, in this case, Rukia. Urahara leaving *that* particular information behind did leave a secondary (incidentally less fatal) option open. Thus, Urahara might have left behind the info on the non-fatal extraction method (but NOT the blueprints to make it) on purpose for the eventuality he failed to hide the Hogyoku... thus could save the Hogyoku bearer's life (although Aizen was about to kill Rukia anyway because he's a meglomaniacal bastard ... Rukia fortunately had enough powerful people that cared enough about her who kept that from happening, thank god. Urahara was either very likely it was Rukia he put the Hogyoku in or this is all premeditated in either a very cosmic or purposeful way).
There also could be some as yet undisclosed side effect from the Hogyoku on it's bearer... Rukia might have been permanently changed by the Hogyoku (and through her, Ichigo), so that could be more reason for Urahara to leave the extraction method info behind in a last ditch attempt to save the Bearer.
Maybe the Hogyoku had to be inside her, because it had to (or would) be Rukia who met Ichigo and thus changed (or, perhaps more accurately, awakened) him. And, since he's the protagonist he's likely the world's only salvation (apart from Bound prophecies and such ;)... so Ichigo *had to* be awakened... and by Kaien Shiba's subordinate, adopted daughter of the Kuchiki clan.
dang gurl!! you are onto something. loving all this...now, as far as Tessai is concerned, i am more apt to think that tessai, ururu and Jinta are all some forms of gigais.
That could definitely be, the one thing that kind of makes me wary about Tessai cut from the same mold, per se, as Jinta and Ururu is that Tessai can do Level 99 Demon Magic. Even Aizen only pulled off Level 90. Tessai seems to be extremely skilled at Kidoh. Thus might lead to consider an inherent gift and possibly elite, long-term training at Shinigami Academy.
if he WERE a taicho..how is it that Ichigo's last name does not ring bells
Not having as much knowledge of the manga as I should admittedly... did Isshin go by his current name in Soul Society? I kind of always figured he changed his name post-SS as an extra precaution.
I am also inclined to think that Isshin's leaving may have something to do with Masaki, too.
Certainly not discounting that either. Particularly if there's something odd about Masaki (maybe Isshin encountered her first while he was still a Shinigami scouting the human world? Realizing she was one of a kind and not just for being an exceptional and beautiful human being).
AND, if it WAS only 20yrs ago...wouldn't that mean that Rukia would recognise him??
Of course, I don't really know what's up with Rukia. She seems to make no comparison really between Kaien and Ichigo (you'd think she'd do that all the time with how strikingly they look - even act - alike. Both Byakuya and Ukitake noted the similarities. Then again... Ganju and Kukaku made no mention of Ichi's likeness to Kaien either). I don't know, it almost seems Kubo infected Rukia and the Shiba clan with conventient bouts of Lois Lane syndrome... and Ichi's orange hair functions as Clark's magic glasses.
Re: paragraph 3
Date: 2006-03-20 12:48 am (UTC)*sighs* The hopeless romantic in me is inclined to agree with you. If Yoruichi did learn about some nasty secrets of SS, I could imagine she probably wouldn't stand for it. Being the forthright and liberal person she seems to be... her reasons for leaving SS might have been as multi-layered as Urahara's. She just wasn't exiled as Urahara was. There's also definitely the layers of romance and I could also definitely Yori refusing to let Urahara stand alone in the human world without her watching his back (moreso if she knew what kind of danger he could be in due to the knowledge he had... not just with the Hogyoku, but perhaps those speculated secrets as well).
I think either he is like a "brother" to her or a Lover. my vote is for the latter. ;P
*snorts* Considering it's this show, it's probably a combo of both. God forbid Kubo misses a chance at the potentially incesty vibes (even if I doubt Urahara and Yoruichi are technically related, they don't have to be in this show). Dude, the vibes are everywhere.
Re: lastly...
Date: 2006-03-20 12:54 am (UTC)Of course, Komamura looks like a Kitsune, thus Shippou would probably be more likely to show up. LOL
It is weird how he is the only "animal" (some have called Kenpachi an animal, neh? heh-heh) in the squad.
Renji has been referred to as a "stray dog" and his zanpakuto manifests as some baboon/snake chimera thing. heee Maybe Renji has a little youkai in him too? ;)
Nice Kali icon, btw. ;)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 02:49 am (UTC)No, I think Uryuu was remembering a "tragic sadness" or forethought of some sort. I think she'll me martyred as a good woman, not an insane or unreliable one--after all, she's URYUU'S MOM! :-D
I'm also slightly curious about Inoue's parents. Hollow!Sora's angsty proclamation that they abandoned them (leaving him to raise Orihime alone) seemed a tad anvilicious at the time... perhaps something we needed to remember for future reference?
Sora and Inoue's parents being alive out there is really annoying, isn't it? Maybe Kubo meant it as one of those tragedies to never be resolved--although part of me expects some sort of afternoon special "Orihime Finds Her Birth Mom."
Unfortunately, I can't recall at the moment how far back Miyako and Kaien died (I want to say it was 50 years prior the start of the events of ep1, but I'm not even sure where I'm getting that number).
I have that number in my head too, from where I don't know either. I'm certain it was mentioned in the manga.
There is at least a straggling possibility even in current canon - barring the significant supernatural elements to both characters and living in the same town - they might have known each other. Both are medical practitioners...
Doesn't Isshin, in a very early chapter, say something along the lines of "give me the director of Karakura hospital?" Can't remember if it's when Chad is injured or a flashback when Sora is brought to the hospital... in any case, I just KNOW those two know one another. Isshin and Ryuuken! I have a weakness for crack fiction that pairs them as a yaoi couple--they are such an unlikely pair.
The Shinigami's abundant use of Demon Magic also baffles me somewhat. When or how did they learn it? I suppose that could be one of those things that we may never find out or need to, but ... with Cpt. Komamura lurking around and Aizen with his god complex (wanting to "stand in Heaven")? I am wondering if youkai are something "Bleach" isn't going to touch or it's only a matter of time before we have talking dragons or giant wolves and such flying about.
I took that stuff for granted--we have Hitsugaya's dragon form after all and various references to Eastern archetypes, as well Western ones (will Hell ever be explained? That's what I wanna know!)
As for demon arts, Ichigo doesn't know squat, does he? I like how the demon arts are identified with the older craftier Shinigami (Aizen, Byakuya, Yoruichi) and still that little innocent flower of flowers, Momo.
I don't like Momo, but my guess is that she will play some role in turning Aizen good (yes! I don't think Aizen's all bad! I mean, I've been reading fic about him bedding and raping most of the Bleach cast, but I think he may really have some intellectual stake in the universe--like, I'm the smartest, therefore I should solve its problems)
Blurry-eyed now!
Good night!
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 02:54 am (UTC)As for zanpakutou, I've run across "sword spirits" in Samurai literature before--where one's weapon is a manifestation of one's soul. So Ichigo=Zangetsu=Hollow!Ichigo.
Love Ken-chan--can't wait until he learns his sword's name (and the name of his own true soul)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 04:45 am (UTC)Interesting, eh? Ryuuken almost literally dropped everything (and made Uryuu drop everything as well) to run off for a few days and force the powers out of him. Why is he being so forward... after all this time?
As for zanpakutou, I've run across "sword spirits" in Samurai literature before--where one's weapon is a manifestation of one's soul. So Ichigo=Zangetsu=Hollow!Ichigo.
Which is pretty much what the manga/anime has told us, but I was curious on if it's as straight forward as that. Particularly in Ichigo's case. I'm also not convinced he's an Arrancar or a Vaizard (which is also probably eluded as much in the manga, although I admit I haven't read it totally faithfully).
Love Ken-chan--can't wait until he learns his sword's name (and the name of his own true soul)
It would also be nice he knew his name too one of these days. The killer-man without a name and a nameless zanpakuto. Tragic crazy figure, that Ken-chan.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 06:00 am (UTC)Although knowing this show, it probably would be more on the lines of "Orihime's mom finds her... and tries to suck out her soul, slice her in half, hits on her or ::insert whatever lasciviousness here::"
I just KNOW those two know one another. Isshin and Ryuuken!
With how these old school superpowered folks seem to operate, it honestly would make more sense they at least knew of each other.
I took that stuff for granted--we have Hitsugaya's dragon form after all
When the characters power-up, we also often see demonic manifestations of this power. That could simply be using the demon image as a means to parallel the frightening nature of such massive power, but... I don't know. With, as you said, how many Eastern archetypes have appeared in this show already and youkai/demons being a fairly major archetype (if not in general, then in manga/anime)... ?
And, on another note, the show is absolutely saturated with Buddhist references. Ichigo's Bankai, the repetition of the six spoked image (my guess, it's a possible reference to the six realms of existence which do correspond with the various major factions of the show), reincarnation, etc.
As for demon arts, Ichigo doesn't know squat, does he?
Ichi used flash step when he fought Byakuya, which is classified as part of the demon arts iirc. However, I am kind of confused on what separates zanpakuto or the Shinigami's natural abilities from demon magic exactly. Do Shinigami even have natural abilities seemingly outside of zanpakuto (and even that is rather debatable imo). Which is kind of why I was musing about a possible tie between demons and the zanpakuto... demons themselves partly as origins of the Shinigami themselves (or, at least, their abilities). Something I realize that hasn't been eluded at all in canon (there are no definitive demons in the story yet... even if we do have a fox-headed Shinigami and Hell).
Regarding Ichigo, I do have a funny feeling - Ichi being Super!Ichi after all - he probably will eventually use the demon magic more blatantly (shooting fireballs, bindings, etc) like some of the other Shinigami ... but probably unlike them as well since I'd bet anything he'll be able to do it without all that long-winded chanting. He'll just do it. ::insert a mass of awestruck faces of his incredible demonic power here::
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 06:06 am (UTC)Truthfully, I have my strong doubts about that. Mostly because Aizen's relationship with Hinamori was so dark and twisted, something like showing her real mercy just isn't feasible in my eyes. Not that I justify what he did, but I can almost see why stabbing her would have been kind in comparison. He thinks it was mercy because he made her so she couldn't live without him and he wasn't about to take her with him, so he was going to kill her (as if she could be used and deposed. An example via the new heavenly father to be made for the other children of Soul Society... yet ironic also in that she was another example of the detrimental nature of obsessive, blind love). It would have probably been mercy though for what she will go through now that Aizen is truly 'gone'. Now she's going to have to face what she did and what Aizen really is. Aizen's utter meglomaniacal perversion also makes the idea of redemption or mercy not so reachable to me. I suppose it's not impossible, but I don't think that's what his character will be about. I see him more as a pure example of the old "absolute power corrupts absolutely" adage. Tousen is kind of the character I see that could ultimately regret his actions (also probably die - likely self-sacrificingly - in a heap of angst and regret for them).
Really scary thing is, I actually see Gin more redeemable than Aizen... because he at least showed something akin to genuine mercy to Rangiku (as children, but also later on when he pulled his sword back from killing Hinamori because Rangiku stepped in the way). Although he wore a mask with a permanent smile on his face, you also always pretty much knew that smile was false and he wasn't someone to be trusted. In other words, he was more honest in his dishonesty. Aizen, on the other hand, had the face of utter trust and benevolence... and that was the biggest farce of them all. Will Gin ever actually seek redemption? That's doubtful, but I do think he has at least a shred more capacity to it than Aizen. Aizen's meglomania is resounding and his whole persona was a facade... and that can never be trusted imo.
I do like Momo, but for the sole reason that she is an utterly tragic character to me, completely blinded to an obsessive, self-destructive love. A dark recurring theme in this show (also in Soi Fong and to a much lesser extent, Orihime. The difference between Soi Fong/Yoruichi & Orihime/Ichigo and Hinamori/Aizen is that Aizen purposefully propagated Momo's obsession... Yoruichi and Ichigo did and are doing it unintentionally). However, it's hard to completely blame Momo for her actions, even the greatest Captains were fooled by Aizen. It was hard, however, to watch her lose all faith in Hitsugaya and I don't blame him for "his current self" not able to speak to her. She was *so* thoroughly tricked by Aizen and *so* utterly convinced of Hitsugaya's culpability... all their life together was thrown away as if it were nothing. That had to hurt (even if Hitsugaya himself had been tricked by Aizen).
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 06:08 am (UTC)I don't think Aizen believes what he's done was necessarily or exclusively self-serving... I do think, however, he's doing what he's doing because he believes it's better for everyone. I also don't think Soul Society is anywhere so chaste as to look like these totally innocent lambs in comparison to the likes of Aizen. Although the fact Aizen even thinks he's the one to vaguely be put in such a position screams of frightening zealousy. He practically revelled in his manipulation of turning Hinamori into this obsessive worshipper, because I do think he believes himself someone that shouldn't only lead, but should be worshipped. This guiding light that will steer the universe and Soul Society away from it's weakness, corruption or unenlightenment blah di blah. It's God Complex 101. However, he wouldn't be such a compelling villain imo unless he truly believed what he was doing was in some notion of rightness. That's what makes him truly scary, also, probably (at least in my experience), a sort that probably would be extremely difficult and tricky to redeem. He'll probably die wholly believing in that (forcibly imposed) rightness.
And I think I just broke some record in length of reply. Jesus. I think I'll be going to bed now myself before I threaten to really burn your eyesockets out reading all my bullshit.
Re: 1st paragraph: quincy key
Date: 2006-03-20 01:50 pm (UTC)i was thinking how Uryuu says he is the last quincy...but, TECHNICALLY, he is not. His father IS a quincy, but CHOSE anothre path instead, in order to provide for his family. which, ironically, brings about that whole qiuncy pride of "self-sacrifice". I feel like part of the "angst" between Ryuuken and Ishida stems from their views of self-sacrifice. AND, a quincy is about saving human souls..his father SAVES human lives.
adding another can of worms to the pot...i have more. ^____^
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 02:27 pm (UTC)--boy..we should just start a Masaki speculation thread! heh-heh.
sooo interesting about the notion of her being a natural Hyugouku. Which would explain why Ichigo is half. BUt, what about the Karin and yuzu? We see Karin's ability awakening..and, a part of me is apt to feel that the emergence of the other Kurosaki kids will also give us MORE clues as to Masakai's "powers" and isshin & Masaki's love..neh? A bit of me has this romeo & juliet kind of scenario between the two, but not as tragic. ..well, Masaki dies..but..you know what i mean.
"If Masaki were special, that would pile more layers onto what _debbiechan_ was speccing above. Isshin and Ryuuken might have both been drawn to her, not only due to her beauty and the romance... but perhaps both had some inherent need to protect her."
---This MAY explain why Isshin said, when he was with Ichigo at her grave, "She thought i looked cool when i smoked. You know something, that was the only time your mother ever told me i looked cool". WHich makes me think that maybe MAYBE Masaki in some way married him out of what he did for her? despite his "goofy" disposition (which we see in his interaction with the children). In that pic, when he says that about masaki, you can see that Isshin maybe loved masaki MORE than she loved him. not saying that she did not love Isshin. I think she totally did. BUT< if you are going on the hypothesis that Isshin and Uryuu were head-over-heels in Love with Masaki. It really would have been her choice.
The Isshin vs. Uryuu also MAY explain the fact why Ishida's grandfather bears NO grudge against the SHinigami. and, as we know, Uryuu does. Like father like son? to throw another of carck theory layer on all this. Early on, Kubo-san talked about the importance of Inuoe's character later in the manga, now...here is the crack theory. . i am wondering if, IF, perhaps, Inuoe will play out that same triangle with Ishida and Kurosaki. As we know, though, Inuoe is in love with Kurosaki, kurosaki is clueless (probably the way masaki was with isshin). Now, we know that Ishida has the HIGHEST regard for Inuoe and would protect her to the end (i wish HE would profess his feelings for her...please kubo!!), perhaps there will be a "union" again where Ishida and Ichigo will be able to heal the quincy/shinigami division..AND more importantly, heal whatever MAY be between Uryuu and Isshin. Crack for you. Heat it up and smoke it. ^____^
"(in that, in theory, she was entirely unaware of her supernatural 'specialness', thus wasn't protected and the dark forces out there could so easily find her and harm her. Unfortunately, the Grand Fisher eventually got her"
---Yeh, you definitely have found the gem of truth there. Also, The whole grand fisher is what TOTALLY opens this can of worms regarding who Masaki really was. It's just NOT plausible that Masaki was a normal woman...ORRRRR, if she was..I feel there could be TWO reasons why the Grand fisher "targeted" her. 1. the grand fisher has some other history with Isshin and used his family as a way to get back to him for some past grudge? And, seeing as Isshin relenquished his shinigami powers when he met Masaki, he would not know of the danger that awaited his family. Perhaps he hoped, that by "hiding" his shinigami past and living a "normal" life, it would take him off the radar of potential hollows looking for revenge from comrades. 2. If maskai did have spirital powers that were hidden from her, but known of by Isshin and Uryuu, Kubo-san does an INGENIOUS way of confusing us with that. When Masaki runs after Ichigo, down by the river bank: Is she running to him, because she see the hollow girl and wants to stop him?? Or does she think that Little Ichigo is going to end up in the river and runs to stop him?
oh....what wonderful ebs we are weaving....intricate and beautiful.
more crack for our pot. ;P
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 03:17 pm (UTC)---aye, there's the rub. ^___^
"The very high-ups at Soul Society may not care too much how many Quincy Mayuri tortures and dissects... just as long as it doesn't effect them or their cushy positions of supreme power."
--a part of me is also inclined to believe that they do not really know waht is going on in Mayuri's "lab". If Urahara was able to great the Hyuogoku under the radar..god knows what Mayuri gets away with. It's just like our own society, neh? I am sure there are experiments that are just atrocious, yet we have no idea about it. It reminds me of the movie "From Hell" which is a fanatastic look at Jack the Ripper really being an instrument of the queen, but went too far.
"heee And I'd bet Shunsui had probably been calling him that since his school days"
---that's mmy boy. I was jus rewatching that battle with Yamaji. Utikake always addresses him in the honorifics...Shunsui addresses him as "Yamaji". ANd, when SHunsui and Utikake escape..you SEE the relationship that Old man Yama has with the two, for he addresses Kyuoraku as "shunsui", and his this "fatherly" tone with him. very kawaii.
just want to correct a mistake on how Taichos get their post. I was rewatching the fight with Tousen & kenpachi and he stated three ways:
1. you take an examination in the presence of old man yamaji and three other squad captains, and receive the apporval from them.
2. You are nominated by 6 captains and have the approval from 4 out of the other 7 remaining.
3. YOu challenge the present captain to a dual in front of 200 squad members and win.
now, from some of the hints given..OBVIOUSLY utikake and Shunsui were hand-picked by Yamaji (what was ALSO interesting to hear Yamaji say, is basically, that SHunsui & Utikake were the FIRST captains, and Yamaji decided to create a group of captains from his "fatherly" connection to these tow...very interestin).
1. now, Rukia mentioned that Byakuya became captain shortly before adopting her into the kuchiki clan. Now, this leads me to believe why Yourichi would call him "byayuya-boy". SO, my inclination is to surmise that he became a captain right after she left, so maybe 75 years or so? (i mean how much time is "shortly before" in SS?)now, i am wondering it his having to be from one of the NOBLEST clans had to do with him getting in. If the clan is able to get RUkia into a Squad without an examination or graduation...i think Byakuya (not to say is he did not have talent) got in a bit more easily than the others.
2...from what Komamaru says about his placement as a squad captain, it seems he was fostered in by Yamaji (though, i am apt to think this was more as an act of kindness and empathy on Yamaji's part)
3. this would mean that the other captains got in through the traditional ways. now, the only other one i am curious about is Hitsugaya ...he is the "tenken" of the squad captains, and i deem he MAY have done the examination process. I don't think Aizen or Gin would have voted for him. . .not to mention Tousen. so, that one is a curious one. For it seems, alot of people have a "jealous" streak towards little hitsu, neh? I can see Kenpachi not caring, as long as he can "put up a good fight". heehee.