spn - 5.06 - i believe that children are our future

[retro_eidas]

This is going to be totally rambly and probably forgetting things since I haven't rewatched yet, but initial impressions....

• "God help me, I couldn't do it." As in, Mary 2.0 couldn't kill her Antichrist demonspawn baby. Although that line was interesting. Clue that God Himself doesn't want that kid to die? He wouldn't I suppose, if the kid does have a choice / can do good in the world or at least have a use that doesn't destroy the universe... or that is God's intent and our intrepid heroes got to take down God? IDK
  
  
• Mary 2.0 was played by the actress who played Sheriff Carter's pregnant sister from "Eureka". I suppose she likes playing pregnant chicks?
  
  
• I can't say I'd be crying too hard at the possibility the kid might waste all the heavenly hosts considering, sorry Cas, most of Castiel's brothers we've seen are TOTAL APOCALYPSE-STARTING ASSHOLES. Maybe we might meet some redeemable yet, but that remains to be frickin' seen.
  
  
• Although that also obviously means Cas better get to the Falling and get adopted married into the Winchester clan, toute suite.
  
  
• That kid who played Jesse was awesome. One of the better guest actors they've had. Also seems pretty obvious he was named after Jesse Custer. Time of the (antichrist) Preacher, folks.
  
  
• This ep felt WAY more like classic Dean-Sam than last week's labored attempts.
  
  
• I didn't really have a problem with Castiel getting in Sam's grill like that (nope, still haven't forgotten S4, Sammy). However, since Sam was clearly being portrayed as the compassionate, understanding Voice of Reason in the ep and Cas the dbag angel hard ass, the more I think they really are keeping the reveal of Cas letting Sam out of the panic room (and helping capture Anna) in their back pockets, waiting to spring that on the boys. Of course, only after they've all made nice and are comfortable and probably had some decisive victory in making Zachariah's life hell. Also bet *anything* it's going to be Zachariah who spills the beans too. To get back at Cas and break-up his alliance with the boys.
  
  
• Did anyone else think John vs Sam during the Castiel vs Sam? Dean was caught in the middle of both, trying to play peacemaker.
  
  
• Batshit Dean/Cas shipper as I am, my mind totally interpreted pissy!Cas as him angry at Sam for how he treated Dean last season. Shippiness aside, I could actually see Cas being overprotective of Dean, which would sort of make him more of an anti-John than John stand-in (and yeah, the less this Dean/Cas shipper thinks of Cas=John in any way THE BETTER!! *cringes*).

Comments

[amaresu]

I've read meta in the past where, when Sam and John got in their bouts, it was unconsciously a duel to win Dean's loyalty.

I've read meta along those lines before as well and I just can't quite buy it. It just doesn't make sense for how I see the characters, unless we're talking about incestuous relationships between them and then I totally can see it. But platonically it just doesn't jib because the one thing both of them could count on is Dean loyalty. Or unless we get some canon evidence that Sam was trying to get Dean to run off to Stanford with him.

Add in the dirtywrong feelings though and it makes sense. All evidence suggests that Sam started arguing with John at about the time he hit puberty. So.

Now that I'm thinking about it I have to wonder if Sam's always known that he comes first for Dean. It's something John always knew (and I think approved of), but maybe Sam didn't. Then I could see a platonic arguing over Dean because Sam wants to be first for his big brother. Stuff to think over.

I do think that Sam argues with Castiel over Dean, but I'm not sure Cas is up enough on his human interactions to pick up on that. Instead he just talks to Dean and wants to know about Sam because Sam is important to Dean. But Sam, especially after being told that he's lost Dean's trust, desperately wants to be number one again. Of course he already is, but he probably doesn't see it and is worried that Castiel will start to come first.

I think if it does come up it's going to be the sort of conflict that they'll eventually come back from stronger/better than they were before, to the haters chagrin.

That would be awesome. Finally make Castiel part of Team Winchester rather than Dean's Stalker/Friend. Or alternatively Sam knows who let him out and neither of them have told Dean because they both know Dean would lose it.

However, watch, there will be some situation with Dean getting in trouble then Sam & Cas have to team up to save him

Now I'm rather fond of the idea of an episode where Sam and Cas have to team up to save Dean and they have to work through their issues. Kinda like Xander and Oz on Buffy, only with competence added to the mix. I would an episode of the Sam and Cas show. And then Dean would just be super happy that his brother and his boyfriend are finally getting along.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I've read meta along those lines before as well and I just can't quite buy it. It just doesn't make sense for how I see the characters, unless we're talking about incestuous relationships between them and then I totally can see it.

I have to admit, I do see the relationships sort of incestuous, even if not at all in any direct way. It's all subconscious, fucked up issues between their family dynamics and losing their mother when the boys were so young. I *do not* think there was any actual feeling there in that way between Dean and John, but I do think that, to a degree, Dean did function in a role that I think would have normally gone to Mary had she been alive. When John wasn't turning to Bobby or Ellen or Ellen's husband (and that's when he wasn't totally alienating them), the only person John could have turned to regularly for moral and emotional support was Dean, likely until Sam became old enough to share any of that burden and I don't get much of an impression that happened often.

Now that I'm thinking about it I have to wonder if Sam's always known that he comes first for Dean.

Oh yeah. I think he's always known or at least believed that, even if he's not entirely conscious of it all the time. I suppose you can't really blame him for that considering Sam was and still pretty much is Dean's whole world, even while John was in the picture. There's been little to nothing that's rocked that boat their entire lives, even those few times Dean's loved some, those rel'ps never lasted. We're never even told Dean's had a friend outside the family (including Bobby in that) or the hunter circle (even those friends aren't particularly close). Castiel though? He's something new all together. The preternatural bond between him and Dean alone, but it's also the growing very human friendship and affection between them. It's unprecedented in the show, at least for Dean, as it's unprecedented in the show it's unprecedented in Dean-Sam's relationship. 5.06 just reminded me again how much Castiel is Dean's Friend, while Cas and Sam have almost no relationship to speak of but apparently what little is there is either not-unpleasant-but-far-from-friends acquaintances to plain antagonistic.

Then I could see a platonic arguing over Dean because Sam wants to be first for his big brother.

I could see that and maybe perhaps ensconced in arguments about who has Dean's best interests in mind.

I do think that Sam argues with Castiel over Dean, but I'm not sure Cas is up enough on his human interactions to pick up on that.

I agree, if it's there Cas isn't entirely seeing where the strong sentiment is coming from. At least I'd certainly like to think it's beyond just the frustration of Dean and Sam trying to stop him. There could be shades of Dean-Sam's angsty talk at the end of 5.01. The problem with Dean was never about Sam opening the last seal and setting Lucifer free, it was Sam choosing a demon over him. I'd wonder with Castiel's closeness to Dean, that might be unconsciously a similar problem with him. Like Castiel baffled and angry at Sam at how he could hurt Dean like he'd done, all the while knowing how much Dean sacrificed for him and loved him? Castiel basically resentful and angry for Dean's sake, since Dean just can't stay angry at Sam for long (because he loves him so much, but also out of necessity, they need to stick together to try to stop the Apocalypse / keep each other human). Castiel can also read minds, so he was probably seeing every bit what War saw in Sam a few eps earlier and that also maybe fueling Castiel's anger at Sam.

It could also be some of Castiel's heartbreak at his own brothers' betrayal and turning against God is being displaced onto Sam, another traitorous brother. Specifically, Dean's brother, who we're seeing Castiel being portrayed as having a lot in common with ("I know something about absent fathers").

cont.

[amaresu]

Dean did function in a role that I think would have normally gone to Mary had she been alive.

In a lot of ways he was Sam's other parent. His mom. He lied to Sam for a lot longer than John lied to him. I'm betting Dean didn't get lied to about a lot of the really nasty stuff, but he was supposed to help protect Sam from it. And I'm willing to bet Sam didn't make his own dinner so much as Dean made their dinner for them. I agree in that Sam probably wasn't forced to take on the emotional burden very often and when he was he was at a much older age then Dean was.

(On a side note I think I watch too much Criminal Minds because I keep thinking of all the fucked up family dynamics that are on that show and boy would the Winchesters fit right in.)

There's been little to nothing that's rocked that boat their entire lives, even those few times Dean's loved some, those rel'ps never lasted.

And I think that's promoted a bit of a double standard there. Sam is allowed to go off and have his own life, but I doubt he'd be okay with Dean doing the same. Kinda like how it's okay for you to move and do your own thing, but your parents aren't allowed to. It's the selfishness of children I think.

From what little we've been shown of their childhood Dean we haven't seen Dean have any friends. Some random hook-ups in high school and a few Hunters to sit around and drink with, but that's it. So, yeah, Castiel has got to be all that much more jarring. I think Cassie was the closest we've come to an outsider relationship for Dean and that ended badly. Oh, and what's his name, Benny(?) from Sin City in S3, it's been awhile since I've seen that one but I think Sam got out his bitchface a couple of times there.

Sam doesn't trust Cas because the angels betrayed them and he doesn't know Cas as anything other than one of the angels. One that his brother seems to trust, but that's it. So I can totally see Sam not even trying to make nice with Castiel. And he didn't seem to, he went directly to attacking Cas once killing Jesse came up.

I could see that and maybe perhaps ensconced in arguments about who has Dean's best interests in mind.

I'd be willing to be that Sam doesn't believe Castiel has Dean's interests in mind at all. Sam hasn't been privy to all the times when Castiel's motivations were laid out and I'm betting that's not something Dean choose to share.

it was Sam choosing a demon over him.

Which is not something Sam's actually apologized for. So I think it's going to be brought up again in one form or another. Dean's the type to forgive, but never forget. Sam's repeatedly apologized for letting Lucifer out, but not for the thing that actually matters.

Like Castiel baffled and angry at Sam at how he could hurt Dean like he'd done, all the while knowing how much Dean sacrificed for him and loved him? Castiel basically resentful and angry for Dean's sake, since Dean just can't stay angry at Sam for long

This. So much this. I hope this gets brought up. Cas doesn't do a lot of stuff for himself, he hasn't learned how to be selfish yet. Dean's been his catalyst this whole time and he clearly thinks the world of Dean so the idea that Sam would hurt him like that must just be confusing for the guy.

It could also be some of Castiel's heartbreak at his own brothers' betrayal and turning against God is being displaced onto Sam, another traitorous brother.

And it would be a nice parallel for all the displacement and projection Sam does with his own emotions.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I agree in that Sam probably wasn't forced to take on the emotional burden very often and when he was he was at a much older age then Dean was.

Hell, Sam didn't actually get confirmation of the existence of the supernatural world and what John was doing until AVSC and he was a lot older than 4 there. Not to say Dean knew about it at that age either, but being 4-yrs-old, he had more capacity to remember. He still had to grow up to quickly especially considering John was barely holding it together and was just learning about the supernatural world himself. Dean couldn't have been much older than Sam in AVSC when he had to defend Sam's life in "Something Wicked", by himself and you presume Dean knew about the world at least some time before that.

And I think that's promoted a bit of a double standard there. Sam is allowed to go off and have his own life

Sam grew up with more of a capacity for normal than Dean because Sam had Dean around raising him and for support. Dean... didn't really have anyone. You can see the effects of this throughout the whole series, but even the last ep reminds us, Dean seems to be more comfortable with children than he seems to be with adults. A part of him still being that child that never really was allowed to grow up, or at least not the way he should have. This is sort of why I like the Dean/Cas dynamic so much. Dean, like Cas, on one side seems so very old (you add on the years he spent in Hell, he'd nearly be in his 80s, seemingly not unlike what he looks like in the promo for the next new ep), yet inside of him there's still prominently a child that never quite grew up. Cas is the very extreme of that, an eons-old angel, but almost totally naive when it comes to the simplest social/human interactions. More naive and awkward than even Dean.

I think Cassie was the closest we've come to an outsider relationship for Dean and that ended badly.

I also hope this isn't my bias showing either, but I honestly think Castiel has shown more genuine caring and understanding for Dean and his state of mind than Cassie was really capable. Of course, Castiel has the unfair advantage of having divine superpowers and can see right into Dean's head and soul, but it just is what it is. She knew about the life, but unless you're there in the thick of it, which she wasn't, I think she could only ever understand it or Dean in a very peripheral way. Also, understandably, it wasn't a life she seemed to really want any part in (because she wasn't insane) and to accept all of Dean is to accept that life.

This. So much this. I hope this gets brought up. Cas doesn't do a lot of stuff for himself, he hasn't learned how to be selfish yet. Dean's been his catalyst this whole time and he clearly thinks the world of Dean so the idea that Sam would hurt him like that must just be confusing for the guy.

Of course, Castiel also probably feels like a failure, even if I don't necessarily believe he regrets the decision he made despite what he says in 5.02. Now he couldn't kill the Antichrist that could very well kill his brothers. Assholes as they are and despite everything, I don't think Castiel wishes them death... unless of course they take the Dean threatening to the next level, which they most likely will do. It's going to be interesting watching Castiel react to that. I'm also still curious on Castiel's thoughts about Dean's refusal to accept Michael. What exactly does Castiel think about that? He doesn't want humanity to suffer, so that could be his reason for backing Dean, but I'm very curious on seeing any confirmation that it's about Dean's welfare specifically. As far as Castiel knows, there can only be one possible fate for Dean if he should accept Michael and it would be *worse* than Raphael's vessel. I'd just like to see him acknowledge he does not want that to happen to Dean.

[amaresu]

Dean couldn't have been much older than Sam in AVSC when he had to defend Sam's life in "Something Wicked", by himself and you presume Dean knew about the world at least some time before that.

I also got the impression that Dean had been defending Sam for some time. It wasn't something new for him. I also doubt that Sam went directly from confirmation of what John did to learning how to fight as well. There was probably a period of adjustment in there. Sam got to be a kid for a lot longer.

Sam grew up with more of a capacity for normal than Dean because Sam had Dean around raising him and for support.

I think this is something that Sam might just be beginning to understand. He's never really understood why Dean hunts, but for Dean there's never really been another option. He doesn't know how to live a life without it.

yet inside of him there's still prominently a child that never quite grew up.

I like this and it's truthiness.

She knew about the life, but unless you're there in the thick of it, which she wasn't, I think she could only ever understand it or Dean in a very peripheral way.

Exactly. Cassie could never really understand him. Which is just tragic. Only someone who was willing to embrace the lifestyle could ever stand a chance of figuring out what's going on inside Dean's head and that's just really sad.

He doesn't want humanity to suffer, so that could be his reason for backing Dean, but I'm very curious on seeing any confirmation that it's about Dean's welfare specifically.

I think it's more in general he doesn't want humanity to suffer, but Dean is the important one. Don't forget that his whole turn around was due to Dean. Without Dean he never would've done it.

Also he seemed to make a point of making sure Dean knew that Michael would leave him worse off then Raphael's poor vessel. I wouldn't be surprised if Castiel argues against it later in the season. Because we know Dean and we know that sooner or later he's going to think that saying yes to Michael is an acceptable option. Sam and Castiel are going to have to talk him out of it. It'll be interesting.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I think it's more in general he doesn't want humanity to suffer, but Dean is the important one. Don't forget that his whole turn around was due to Dean. Without Dean he never would've done it.

A friend of mine pointed out to me that Dean has almost this unnatural capacity to bring out good in people. Sometimes in a very literal sense. Look how John and Bobby managed to fight off their possessions when they both nearly killed Dean. Granted, it's not limited to events around Dean, Jesse's mom fought off her possession too, although I honestly think it was implied that God helped her out there. Although, if there is anything to that ability of Dean's, he's keeping some very interesting company there. Friend also pointed out that those that threaten or hurt Dean? Almost always end up dying horrible deaths.

Because we know Dean and we know that sooner or later he's going to think that saying yes to Michael is an acceptable option.

I'm still dubious on how much I'm willing to take the incidents in 5.04 as true as opposed to a Zachariah fabrication, but Future!Dean's adamance in trying to say yes to Michael isn't really outside of the realm of possibilities for the way Dean is. Future!Dean absolutely hated himself, but couldn't die because people were depending on him. It is essentially like the heavenly version of the Faustian deal. Even back in 4.21, Dean made that contract with Castiel all so "Sam won't have to." Shades of Dean's deal in AHBL to bring Sam back to life.

Not that I ever think we're going to get vegetable!Dean and this could be fatalistic, but I still think 4.21 was the beginning of the end, at least for Dean. I don't think he'll die and I'm not convinced Dean will ever let Michael ride him, but I think he will get changed - if there isn't already something really hinky about him - in some completely irreversible way.

[amaresu]

Look how John and Bobby managed to fight off their possessions when they both nearly killed Dean.

Besides Jesse's mom has anyone else been able to do that? I don't think so. It seems to imply something special about Dean, perhaps related to Michael and why he's not walking around in a temporary vessel? I think this is something they've been hinting at for ages and we may finally get an answer to.

Even back in 4.21, Dean made that contract with Castiel all so "Sam won't have to." Shades of Dean's deal in AHBL to bring Sam back to life.

Exactly. So I think if it starts to come down to Dean saying yes or Sam and everyone else dying we know which way he's going to go.

Something big is coming for Dean. There's been too much foreshadowing on that subject to think otherwise. I'm curious as to what exactly it'll be though. God gonna do something to him? Is he actually Michael already, only fallen like Anna was? What is going to happen?

[eido.livejournal.com]

But Sam, especially after being told that he's lost Dean's trust, desperately wants to be number one again.

Except now he's basically got to share Dean, which has NEVER happened before. I really could see this being an issue, I love Sam, but he has always struggled with his selfishness and it's going to be a long while before he masters it, despite the massive bitchslap of humility he got in 4.22.

Discussions during the hiatus with a friend about S5, we were wondering if Sam may be friendly to Castiel at first, but as the story goes on, we start seeing Sam's true, uglier sentiments underneath. Basically sort of like what happened with Adam last season. Sam seemed like the more welcoming, nicer brother, but Sam's true feelings re: Adam were hardly friendly as they were revealed as the ep progressed. Also note that latter S4 is when Sam was identifying with John more than ever. Because of that, I do think Sam *deeply* resented Adam, almost to a frightening degree. For Dean it was there on the surface but he quickly overcame it and I do think had real empathy for Adam, while I don't think Sam did (having a MUCH deeper resentment of Adam, due to his normal life but also having that idyllic rel'p with John, that he never had).

With Castiel, it obviously would be Sam's possessiveness over Dean, not John. Which would be getting down to the heart of the matter since, despite Sam's much increased affinity with John in S4, he always acknowledged Dean as his one true protector / parent. Something he acknowledged way back when they were kids (AVSC when Sam gave Dean the amulet which Bobby meant for John... an amulet which Dean has now given to Cas, reluctantly at first but essentially let Cas keep it 5.03's end for now realizing Cas needs it more than him).

Now I'm rather fond of the idea of an episode where Sam and Cas have to team up to save Dean and they have to work through their issues. Kinda like Xander and Oz on Buffy, only with competence added to the mix.

This. Also I'd like, if Sam remotely has this belief, to realize that Castiel is no Ruby. He's a real friend to Dean and because of that, whatever issues Sam may have with him, dissipate. If for anything, Dean's sake, but I could see Sam and Cas, though they'll never have the unnatural "I saved you from Hell" bond Dean/Cas have, genuinely becoming friends and through that also helps Sam work through his own dependence on Dean (which is WAY more pronounced than Mr. I Want To Be An Equal & Independent seems to realize) and help Sam grow up.

Although, tragically, I could see Cas sacrificing himself to save Sam, for Sam's sake, but knowing what that would do to Dean if Sam died. :( DAMMIT!! If God is at all a merciful God, he'll save the one true friend Dean's ever had!!

[amaresu]

Except now he's basically got to share Dean, which has NEVER happened before.

Which is just gotta be jarring for Sam. Even just walking in on that phone call in Fallen Idols seemed to shake him. Before he heard what was being said, but that Dean was talking and joking with someone else at all. I'm guessing Dean didn't try to get his own life when Sam went off to Stanford, so with Dean putting together a life separate from Sam during the most recent parting of ways it says all sorts of things. Good, healthy things about finding other reasons to live, but not things Sam's gonna want to hear.

Sam has always been selfish, it's one of his defining traits and I love him anyways, but he's selfish. It's always about what he wants and the moral of S4 could've been 'Stop thinking about your own selfish desires for revenge' if Sam had been paying attention. I think a lot of S5 is going to be about Sam learning to let go and not be John.

Also I'd like, if Sam remotely has this belief, to realize that Castiel is no Ruby.

This has got to be a thought of his, even unconsciously, that Castiel will betray Dean the same way Ruby betrayed him. The similarities in the relationship are obvious and I think they were planned out that way. Sooner or later Sam and Cas are going to have to spend more then five minutes together and it'll be epic. I'm doubting either of them will be able to keep it to themselves. Hopefully they'll come out stronger from it, but it'll be interesting to see.

[eido.livejournal.com]

so with Dean putting together a life separate from Sam during the most recent parting of ways it says all sorts of things. Good, healthy things about finding other reasons to live, but not things Sam's gonna want to hear.

It would be an interesting struggle. Sam wanting to be glad Dean's found a friend, even if it's Castiel, but another part of him afraid or paranoid about the state of his relationship with Dean or fear what Dean's attachment to an angel could do to Dean in the long run. Like we were discussing above, Sam fearing that Cas might have some alterior motive in getting close to Dean.

I think a lot of S5 is going to be about Sam learning to let go and not be John.

At the end of 5.06, you really can't help but think, "Only if John could have let his desire for revenge and curiosity about the nature of Mary's death go, even for a few years or at least secured a safe home for the boys in the meantime..." the boys lives might have been really, really different. Unfortunately, they still inevitably seem to play the role of Azazel or John and forced Jesse into the life because - I suppose like with John's decision about bringing Sam and Dean with him - it was the only option he could be absolutely certain they'd be safe.

This has got to be a thought of his, even unconsciously, that Castiel will betray Dean the same way Ruby betrayed him. The similarities in the relationship are obvious and I think they were planned out that way.

Like you said earlier too, Sam doesn't trust the angels. Whose to say how long Sam would keep seeing Castiel apart from them or if Cas - maybe after a few more confrontations like the one in 5.06 - might get more suspicious in Sam's eyes, even if those suspicions are mostly unfounded.

[amaresu]

I think Sam and Castiel are going to have to spend more then five minutes together before they get anywhere near resolving their issues. And there seem to be just as many issues on Cas's side of things.

I'm thinking as far as Sam's concerned he's only tolerating Castiel because of Dean and I'm thinking it's the other way around for Cas. They don't like each other and it's a bit hilarious.

[eido.livejournal.com]

There really is a glaring difference with how Cas is with Dean as compared to how he is with Sam. Obviously lately it's painfully noticeable. Maybe I could be overstating things after we see more Sam and Cas interaction, but something tells me I'm not.

It is pretty hilarious, how they're likely only tolerating each other for Dean's sake. lol Dean didn't much care for Ruby either, the obvious difference is Castiel is no Ruby. He's actually worthy of friendship. Which is something else I'm wondering will stick in Sam's craw. Why'd he end up with Ruby, while Dean got Castiel?

[amaresu]

Maybe I could be overstating things after we see more Sam and Cas interaction, but something tells me I'm not.

I don't think you are. Cas really doesn't seem to like Sam and he treats him like that. Probably because he hasn't figured out that when you don't like someone you often need to pretend that you do, but it's clear he doesn't like him.

I can't wait for the epic fight between the two of them. I hope Ruby gets thrown around. Although Dean would be the most likely to use Ruby in a fight, so maybe we'll get a three-way fight?