spn - 5.06 - i believe that children are our future

[retro_eidas]

This is going to be totally rambly and probably forgetting things since I haven't rewatched yet, but initial impressions....

• "God help me, I couldn't do it." As in, Mary 2.0 couldn't kill her Antichrist demonspawn baby. Although that line was interesting. Clue that God Himself doesn't want that kid to die? He wouldn't I suppose, if the kid does have a choice / can do good in the world or at least have a use that doesn't destroy the universe... or that is God's intent and our intrepid heroes got to take down God? IDK
  
  
• Mary 2.0 was played by the actress who played Sheriff Carter's pregnant sister from "Eureka". I suppose she likes playing pregnant chicks?
  
  
• I can't say I'd be crying too hard at the possibility the kid might waste all the heavenly hosts considering, sorry Cas, most of Castiel's brothers we've seen are TOTAL APOCALYPSE-STARTING ASSHOLES. Maybe we might meet some redeemable yet, but that remains to be frickin' seen.
  
  
• Although that also obviously means Cas better get to the Falling and get adopted married into the Winchester clan, toute suite.
  
  
• That kid who played Jesse was awesome. One of the better guest actors they've had. Also seems pretty obvious he was named after Jesse Custer. Time of the (antichrist) Preacher, folks.
  
  
• This ep felt WAY more like classic Dean-Sam than last week's labored attempts.
  
  
• I didn't really have a problem with Castiel getting in Sam's grill like that (nope, still haven't forgotten S4, Sammy). However, since Sam was clearly being portrayed as the compassionate, understanding Voice of Reason in the ep and Cas the dbag angel hard ass, the more I think they really are keeping the reveal of Cas letting Sam out of the panic room (and helping capture Anna) in their back pockets, waiting to spring that on the boys. Of course, only after they've all made nice and are comfortable and probably had some decisive victory in making Zachariah's life hell. Also bet *anything* it's going to be Zachariah who spills the beans too. To get back at Cas and break-up his alliance with the boys.
  
  
• Did anyone else think John vs Sam during the Castiel vs Sam? Dean was caught in the middle of both, trying to play peacemaker.
  
  
• Batshit Dean/Cas shipper as I am, my mind totally interpreted pissy!Cas as him angry at Sam for how he treated Dean last season. Shippiness aside, I could actually see Cas being overprotective of Dean, which would sort of make him more of an anti-John than John stand-in (and yeah, the less this Dean/Cas shipper thinks of Cas=John in any way THE BETTER!! *cringes*).

Comments

[eido.livejournal.com]

I agree in that Sam probably wasn't forced to take on the emotional burden very often and when he was he was at a much older age then Dean was.

Hell, Sam didn't actually get confirmation of the existence of the supernatural world and what John was doing until AVSC and he was a lot older than 4 there. Not to say Dean knew about it at that age either, but being 4-yrs-old, he had more capacity to remember. He still had to grow up to quickly especially considering John was barely holding it together and was just learning about the supernatural world himself. Dean couldn't have been much older than Sam in AVSC when he had to defend Sam's life in "Something Wicked", by himself and you presume Dean knew about the world at least some time before that.

And I think that's promoted a bit of a double standard there. Sam is allowed to go off and have his own life

Sam grew up with more of a capacity for normal than Dean because Sam had Dean around raising him and for support. Dean... didn't really have anyone. You can see the effects of this throughout the whole series, but even the last ep reminds us, Dean seems to be more comfortable with children than he seems to be with adults. A part of him still being that child that never really was allowed to grow up, or at least not the way he should have. This is sort of why I like the Dean/Cas dynamic so much. Dean, like Cas, on one side seems so very old (you add on the years he spent in Hell, he'd nearly be in his 80s, seemingly not unlike what he looks like in the promo for the next new ep), yet inside of him there's still prominently a child that never quite grew up. Cas is the very extreme of that, an eons-old angel, but almost totally naive when it comes to the simplest social/human interactions. More naive and awkward than even Dean.

I think Cassie was the closest we've come to an outsider relationship for Dean and that ended badly.

I also hope this isn't my bias showing either, but I honestly think Castiel has shown more genuine caring and understanding for Dean and his state of mind than Cassie was really capable. Of course, Castiel has the unfair advantage of having divine superpowers and can see right into Dean's head and soul, but it just is what it is. She knew about the life, but unless you're there in the thick of it, which she wasn't, I think she could only ever understand it or Dean in a very peripheral way. Also, understandably, it wasn't a life she seemed to really want any part in (because she wasn't insane) and to accept all of Dean is to accept that life.

This. So much this. I hope this gets brought up. Cas doesn't do a lot of stuff for himself, he hasn't learned how to be selfish yet. Dean's been his catalyst this whole time and he clearly thinks the world of Dean so the idea that Sam would hurt him like that must just be confusing for the guy.

Of course, Castiel also probably feels like a failure, even if I don't necessarily believe he regrets the decision he made despite what he says in 5.02. Now he couldn't kill the Antichrist that could very well kill his brothers. Assholes as they are and despite everything, I don't think Castiel wishes them death... unless of course they take the Dean threatening to the next level, which they most likely will do. It's going to be interesting watching Castiel react to that. I'm also still curious on Castiel's thoughts about Dean's refusal to accept Michael. What exactly does Castiel think about that? He doesn't want humanity to suffer, so that could be his reason for backing Dean, but I'm very curious on seeing any confirmation that it's about Dean's welfare specifically. As far as Castiel knows, there can only be one possible fate for Dean if he should accept Michael and it would be *worse* than Raphael's vessel. I'd just like to see him acknowledge he does not want that to happen to Dean.

[amaresu]

Dean couldn't have been much older than Sam in AVSC when he had to defend Sam's life in "Something Wicked", by himself and you presume Dean knew about the world at least some time before that.

I also got the impression that Dean had been defending Sam for some time. It wasn't something new for him. I also doubt that Sam went directly from confirmation of what John did to learning how to fight as well. There was probably a period of adjustment in there. Sam got to be a kid for a lot longer.

Sam grew up with more of a capacity for normal than Dean because Sam had Dean around raising him and for support.

I think this is something that Sam might just be beginning to understand. He's never really understood why Dean hunts, but for Dean there's never really been another option. He doesn't know how to live a life without it.

yet inside of him there's still prominently a child that never quite grew up.

I like this and it's truthiness.

She knew about the life, but unless you're there in the thick of it, which she wasn't, I think she could only ever understand it or Dean in a very peripheral way.

Exactly. Cassie could never really understand him. Which is just tragic. Only someone who was willing to embrace the lifestyle could ever stand a chance of figuring out what's going on inside Dean's head and that's just really sad.

He doesn't want humanity to suffer, so that could be his reason for backing Dean, but I'm very curious on seeing any confirmation that it's about Dean's welfare specifically.

I think it's more in general he doesn't want humanity to suffer, but Dean is the important one. Don't forget that his whole turn around was due to Dean. Without Dean he never would've done it.

Also he seemed to make a point of making sure Dean knew that Michael would leave him worse off then Raphael's poor vessel. I wouldn't be surprised if Castiel argues against it later in the season. Because we know Dean and we know that sooner or later he's going to think that saying yes to Michael is an acceptable option. Sam and Castiel are going to have to talk him out of it. It'll be interesting.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I think it's more in general he doesn't want humanity to suffer, but Dean is the important one. Don't forget that his whole turn around was due to Dean. Without Dean he never would've done it.

A friend of mine pointed out to me that Dean has almost this unnatural capacity to bring out good in people. Sometimes in a very literal sense. Look how John and Bobby managed to fight off their possessions when they both nearly killed Dean. Granted, it's not limited to events around Dean, Jesse's mom fought off her possession too, although I honestly think it was implied that God helped her out there. Although, if there is anything to that ability of Dean's, he's keeping some very interesting company there. Friend also pointed out that those that threaten or hurt Dean? Almost always end up dying horrible deaths.

Because we know Dean and we know that sooner or later he's going to think that saying yes to Michael is an acceptable option.

I'm still dubious on how much I'm willing to take the incidents in 5.04 as true as opposed to a Zachariah fabrication, but Future!Dean's adamance in trying to say yes to Michael isn't really outside of the realm of possibilities for the way Dean is. Future!Dean absolutely hated himself, but couldn't die because people were depending on him. It is essentially like the heavenly version of the Faustian deal. Even back in 4.21, Dean made that contract with Castiel all so "Sam won't have to." Shades of Dean's deal in AHBL to bring Sam back to life.

Not that I ever think we're going to get vegetable!Dean and this could be fatalistic, but I still think 4.21 was the beginning of the end, at least for Dean. I don't think he'll die and I'm not convinced Dean will ever let Michael ride him, but I think he will get changed - if there isn't already something really hinky about him - in some completely irreversible way.

[amaresu]

Look how John and Bobby managed to fight off their possessions when they both nearly killed Dean.

Besides Jesse's mom has anyone else been able to do that? I don't think so. It seems to imply something special about Dean, perhaps related to Michael and why he's not walking around in a temporary vessel? I think this is something they've been hinting at for ages and we may finally get an answer to.

Even back in 4.21, Dean made that contract with Castiel all so "Sam won't have to." Shades of Dean's deal in AHBL to bring Sam back to life.

Exactly. So I think if it starts to come down to Dean saying yes or Sam and everyone else dying we know which way he's going to go.

Something big is coming for Dean. There's been too much foreshadowing on that subject to think otherwise. I'm curious as to what exactly it'll be though. God gonna do something to him? Is he actually Michael already, only fallen like Anna was? What is going to happen?