Oak, Holly, the Earth Goddess... and your mother too.

[retro_eidas]

As I was telling anneu53714 yesterday, I've got a nasty bout of the OCD with HHR OTP, so I can't resist putting an addendum to my last entries. It's the H/Hr perspective of my previous Celtic myth ramblings (and I must be crazy to post this on my LJ ::hopes the Ron & R/HR fans on my friends list don't beat me with reeds::)...

Unfortunately Ron, for most of the story, seems like the ignored, maybe even a bit discarded, child. Not maligning Molly Weasley, she has a lot of kids to take care of and couldn't give them all the attention they deserved. She's not superwoman even though she tries to be. Passed over for six older, more accomplished brothers and the youngest Weasley child / only daughter. Hermione has been shown to mother both Ron and Harry quite often and at different stages. This motherly sort of affection could be why Ron seems to react so jealously and possessively of Hermione.... Ron's affection for Hermione is Oedipal. He yearns for motherly affection from any source and Hermione, being the only female in the Trio and has at times been VERY motherly/protective of Harry *and* Ron, he tends to get this sort of affection from Hermione. Not saying there aren't legitimate romantic feelings there, but there's also that (desperate?) yearning for motherly affection too. It's a bit of a jumbled psychological mess, but then it wouldn't be the Trio I love without a nice dose of some complexes. Otherwise, how are we going to get that inevitable JKR angsty conflict which I'm both sadistically salivating for and terrified of at the same time?

This relationship debacle with Hermione would also be in accordance to the Oak King and Holly King myth. The "Earth Mother" in the myth is a triune goddess, she plays the maid (wife), mother and old crone (wise woman / advisor) to the Oak King and Holly King. Her roles change with the passing of the equinoxes. For example... In Spring, she is the wife to the Oak King. In the fall she's the wife to the Holly King. However, in that rebirth is also huge part of the myth (as it is in HP), she's also responsible for giving birth to *both* the Oak and Holly Kings. The Oak King in midsummer and the Holly King in midwinter. One can say that to Harry and Ron, Hermione can be considered wife, mother and crone. However, when at the beginning of the books it might have seemed Hermione may be Ron's "wife"... as the books progress... she turns into his "mother". Hermione may fancy Ron, or she fancied him, but like the changing of the seasons, a teenage girl's heart can be swayed... but that, of course, remains to be seen.

The situation would be opposite for Harry. At the beginning, Hermione seemed more matronly / "crone"-ish (platonic) towards Harry.... but by the end, we're meandering into another season and she becomes Harry's "wife". She passes from one "King" to the other (a la, the Oak and Holly Kings). Although, I personally suspect she may have been harboring romantic feelings for Harry all along (because I'm an H/Hr shipper and I'm crazy-biased like that), it's just that - per a teenage girl with considerably nasty self-esteem issues - she never lets herself imagine she could be with someone like Harry (she puts him above her in a sense even back in PS/SS, "Books and cleverness! There are more important things..."). Harry, who likes pretty, older women who play Quidditch. Yet she also can't stay away from him. She's always there for him and seemingly always has to help him, no matter what sacrifices she has to make (GoF, Helping Harry learn the Accio charm, spending nearly eight hours doing it. Passing over homework, dinner, etc). Even trying to help him with Cho if it made him happy (and at that time, Harry really needed a little happiness), despite her own possible feelings. As far as Hermione knows, Harry doesn't remotely feel for her in that way (and she would know considering how apparently closely she's been observing him all along. Which is rather interesting and slightly disturbing in and of itself. Hermione the stalker?). She doesn't dare proposition him in OotP. Approaching him then might not have only meant a broken heart for her, but awkwardness between them and damaging their friendship. More trouble Harry didn't need. This could cause severe conflict with Ron too. Hermione also must know Ron has feelings for her, even if she may not return them (at least, not like she used to).

Sidenote: As Hermione changes in the passing of the seasons (school terms, in HP), as does her (theoretical) counterpart, Ginny. Ginny (who has many qualities in common with the Spring Maiden, often associated with Persephone. In COS, Beguiled and captured by [Holly King Tom] Hades and taken to the Underworld [Chamber of Secrets] where Hermes [Harry] and/or Mommy Demeter [Harry] had to go rescue her. With a little help from Hecate [Hermione]). The Spring Maiden who fancied the Oak King (Cernunnos) Harry once ... but as the story changes from Spring (Books 2-4) to Fall (Book 5?)... her interest in him has waned (per Hermione's Ginny insights in OotP). This could be false as Hermione isn't always right, but with her dead-on knowledge of Cho, I'm willing to give Herms the benefit of the doubt. If Ginny's interest in Harry has indeed waned, this could be an indication Ginny too, like Hermione, has changed.... but changed in opposite to Hermione (at least, Surface!Hermione). Herms, in appearance, started the "Crone" (the swotty, unwarranted advice giver), then becomes the "Mother" (affectionate protector and comforter - Molly Weasley, Lily Potter)... and is eventually destined to be the "Maid"/Wife? Ginny, on the other hand, has gone from the "Maid" (fancied Harry, Books 1-4) to the "Mother" (Book 6? Book 5 and her Cho relationship advice. She gives Harry a chocolate easter egg. An egg, a symbol of rebirth.... as the Earth Mother gives birth to her reborn King son. OotP, the same book we discover, in canon, Lily has red hair a la Weasley). As of Book 5, Ginny is now the matron form of Lily Potter for Harry? The next stage being the "Crone" (the advisor, the wise woman)... what will Crone!Ginny advice her growing KingSon!Harry of in Book 6? Book 7?

Of course, this gets even more complicated considering I believe Harry is BOTH the Oak *and* Holly Kings. He's Cernunnos (see other entries). Hermione, in actuality, has been the Crone, Mother *and* Maid. The triune goddess, partly because I feel she's displayed qualities of the trinity, in regards to Harry, from the start. Which means, Hermione is only changing in appearance, but underneath, she was always playing these three roles (we're just not going to fully realize it until, hypothetically speaking, Books 6 & 7). Always gives him advice, always protecting him like a mother and... loves him like a wife (as she became infatuated with the Gilderoy "brave and famous Dark Forces fighter" Lockhart? As she dated Viktor "Famous Seeker [who hates his fame]" Krum in GoF?)

All the above might sound all kinds of incesty and disturbing (or kinky, whatever floats your boat. OT3! WOOT!!)... blame the Celtic myths and those bloody Egyptians. They started it!

I'm very suspicious of Hermione's seemingly acute observations of Harry and his lovelife. She seems to observe him, Cho and apparently all Harry's potential love interests - including Ginny - a little too closely (aforementioned "Stalker!Hermione"). In Cliodna's lovely "The Sea of Confusion" (H/Hr shippy goodness from Herm's POV), she quotes Cleopatra who once said, "It's in the female psyche to investigate the women of the man they loved in order to make sure that they were worthy of the man, but not surpassing one’s own worthiness." This is considerably pronounced in OotP, where I do believe her true feelings are coming more into the forefront. Especially with the battles likely getting worse and the time ever coming closer that Harry may have that final battle with Voldemort. The question will come, What if he dies and he never knows how much he's really loved? Harry not only feels no love at the end of OotP, his self-loathing seems to be stronger than ever. Which is really dangerous. He's going to need Hermione. She not only can't stand the thought of him dying (Yes, he's her best friend... but... someone even joking about it she can't stand. No wonder she hated Professor "You have... THE GRIM. dun dun DUN" Trelawney so much and hated High Inquisitor "Cruciatus Curse" Umbitch even more). In theory, the thought of Harry's death is damn near unbearable to Hermione because of her feelings but, canonically, she's his reason and conscience. She's the voice in his head that tries to keep him from destroying himself. This is Hermione. She Harry's mother (Lily or Molly), the crone (Professor McGonagall)... but always bearing the love of a wife (in secret, Lily to James). She is Lily, yet not Lily. In other words, I think Hermione has enough love to not only give and protect a child, but Harry (the King) also. A missing element when James/Lily died... they didn't stay together. Something that doesn't seem to be evident with Harry and Hermione. Hermione has always been there (if not in body, then in spirit. Like in the labyrinth of the Third Task and Harry had to face the sphinx riddle. He thought of Hermione. Before/after the Wizengamot hearing in OotP, he saw the Magical Brethren statue and thought of Hermione, etc etc), every step of the way. Something that Ginny, Luna, Cho and Lily can't claim.

Which means... Harry could fall in love with his own mother, Professor McGonagall AND underage Books 1-4 Ginny All. At. Once. Ain't that a humdinger? ::is going to hell::

Back to Pt. 1, Pt. 2, Pt. 3

Comments

[dragon-faere.livejournal.com]

But you know what really sticks in my mind after all of this?

Yes, he's her best friend... but... someone even joking about it she can't stand. No wonder she hated Professor "You have... THE GRIM. dun dun DUN" Trelawney so much and hated High Inquisitor "Cruciatus Curse" Umbitch even more.

Highly amusing how everyone seems to refer to her like that. Of course, I don't deny it one bit.

Once again Eido, your little theories amaze me. I'm familiar with some of the Egyptian mythology but not as much as the Celtic, and the issue with the rebirth and changing seasons can turn heads quite easily. But, it's not that Harry can fall in love with his own mother per se, it's a proven fact that a son will look for those qualities in his future wife and vice versa when a daughter suddenly realizes that there are similarities between her father and fiance. (scary!I know!)

You also have to take into consideration that when it really comes down to the characters, they are all individuals in one way or another. In no way can you say the Weasley clan are all the same in personality, because we know that they're not. Furthermore, we have to take into consideration their own individual experiences and ties to other people, some stronger than others, as you've proven in the stalker!Hermione point. (o_O yes, I admit that was a bit unnerving)

I really have no idea where my thoughts are going so I'll just shut up right now and take a look into more Celtic mythlology.

~Luanne.

[eido.livejournal.com]

Highly amusing how everyone seems to refer to her like that. Of course, I don't deny it one bit.

Bitch doesn't even describe her. She's like the Grand Wizard of Evil. Hate her. OotP was like the book for evil women. Umbitch and Bellatrix. They need to burn. A lot.

not as much as the Celtic

The Celtic influence is like saturated in HP. The House Elves? They're so Brownies (http://www.tartans.com/modules.php.srl.op+modload,name+EZCMS,file+index,menu+1,page_id+22.html). The pagans also had their own myths in regards to unicorns, dragons, Seers and everything. The wands? House colors? The House animals? ALL are tied to Celtic myths. The King Arthur Legend similarities are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm totally fixated on that whole Oak/Holly/Cernunnos thing (if that wasn't, you know, gratuitously obvious or anything). Harry and Moldie Voldie tied into the old "Stag" God makes more sense really than just the one comparison to little old King Arthur. I mean, why make Tom and Harry "Kings" when they can be gods, eh? ;)

the issue with the rebirth and changing seasons

Random fyi, there are four Hogwarts Houses, right? The Celtic calendar was divided into two sections of Four. For the four Celtic fire festivals (Samhain aka Halloween, Imbolc aka Candlemas/Groundhog Day, Beltane aka May Day and Lughnasadh on Aug31/Sept 1 [it's a big harvest festival]). The importance of Halloween in HP goes without saying. Not sure about the rest of the festivals, but there could be something there. It's the seasons that are surprisingly intriguing.

Seasons:
Alban Arthuan - Light of Arthur (Winter Solstice)
Alban Eiler - Light of the Earth (Spring Equinox)
Alban Heruin - Light of the Shore (Summer Solstice)
Alban Elued - Light of the Water (Autumn Equinox)

"Alban" obviously means "light of". It derives from Alba, the ancient name for Scotland. Alba comes from "Albus", the Latin word for white. Headmaster Albus Dumbledore... Alba/Alban... and Hogwarts itself is popularly speculated located somewhere in Scotland (aka, Alba)? All very interesting. I wonder if JKR is trying to tie in the four Houses/Founders to the Celtic seasons?

This is very interesting in an H/Hr perspective in that Harry and Hermione, together, are quite literally the four Hogwarts Houses. The alliteration of their names is synonimous with the alliteration of the Founders names (to be a complete mirror - HJP = HJP - Hermione would have to have a surname that begins with P... Wonder how she could get that? ;). Both of them together make up the major qualities of each house. Harry has both Gryffindor and Slytherin (but according to the Hat he had qualities of all four Houses, Gryffindor and Slytherin in the forefront). Hermione, Ravenclaw, Gryffindor and Hufflepuff (for her unwavering "solidarity and loyalty" as Harry called it in OotP).

If Harry is Cernunnos, Celtic god of both the waning and waxing years, he would basically be the god of the Summer and Winter Solstices.

Interesting the Spring and Autumn Equinoxes are ruled by Earth and Water respectively. Hermione's patronus, the otter, is an animal that can live on both Earth and Water. The otter also sometimes represents joy, playfulness and curiosity. Slightly odd considering Hermione's supposedly bookish persona.

[dragon-faere.livejournal.com]

(Not to mention that JKR admits she's rather fond of the otter itself.)

But goodness! You're really into this, aren't you?

[needia.livejournal.com]

"Alban" obviously means "light of". It derives from Alba, the ancient name for Scotland. Alba comes from "Albus", the Latin word for white. Headmaster Albus Dumbledore
It could also be likened to 'Albion' (sp) which is one of the older names for England.

The otter also sometimes represents joy, playfulness and curiosity. Slightly odd considering Hermione's supposedly bookish persona.
Personally, I see Rowling as injecting a lot of herself into her characters, (I.e. Hermione's Otter, otters being JK's favourite animal, Hermione being a sort of caricature of herself) which might override (Probably not the best way to put it) a more intellectual analysis. Potter might mean something quite relevant, but its meaning probably wasn't as important as JK liking the name.

The Celtic influence is like saturated in HP. The House Elves? They're so Brownies. The pagans also had their own myths in regards to unicorns, dragons, Seers and everything. The wands? House colors? The House animals? ALL are tied to Celtic myths
You haven't ever read any Terry Pratchett have you? He uses a lot of Celtic myths and legends in his books (Specifically the ones with the Witches, and the ones with Death). He goes into the process of mythmaking a lot as well. His elves are pretty enjoyable as well.

[eido.livejournal.com]

Personally, I see Rowling as injecting a lot of herself into her characters, which might override a more intellectual analysis.

Unless of course, she likes the otter specifically because of it's role in the myths. It just also happens to be part of the family mustelidae (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=7). ;)

You haven't ever read any Terry Pratchett have you?

The Discworld books? Good Omens? Oh yeah, I'm familiar with his work.

I certainly wasn't saying Celtic lore is something singular to HP, but that influence definitely is there.

[needia.livejournal.com]

It just also happens to be part of the family mustelidae
Uhhh.... If I pretend I always knew what that word meant will you pretend you never noticed....?
*shuffles nervously*
The Discworld books? Good Omens? Oh yeah, I'm familiar with his work.

I'm re-reading Carpe Jugulem at the moment. The Discworld Vampires are my particular favourites.

I certainly wasn't saying Celtic lore is something singular to HP, but that influence definitely is there.
Of course not :) You'd be amazed at the number of books that go all out for the 'celtic lore of olde' you can get in the library over here. I picked one up from my friend on holiday and it was terrible . All fairies in trees and whatnot.
The Discworld and HP books (Maybe even Philip Pullman a wee bit, but he's a bit more Nordic in his influences) are one of the special few who manage to pull off those references without a brie and cheddar fest.
Come to think of it, there's was a reference to 'bezerker rage' in an old book of Irish folk tales I remember reading. Wolverine a Celtic throwback, eh? ;)

[eido.livejournal.com]

Uhhh.... If I pretend I always knew what that word meant will you pretend you never noticed....?
*shuffles nervously*

Family mustelidae. You know, ferrets, weasels, otters and the like. ;)

For the record, I have no clue what "mustelidae" means, but probably something on the lines of "animals that look too much like rats". (ewww rats)

Come to think of it, there's was a reference to 'bezerker rage' in an old book of Irish folk tales I remember reading. Wolverine a Celtic throwback, eh? ;)

heee. You never know. His name is Howlett. Sounds like a Scot to me.

[netbyrd.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the drive by, but as a zoo/botany major I couldn't resist. Family mustelidae is the weasel family and is so classified mostly because of their carnivorous nature, dental structure, and most importantly, their scent glands. They are smelly, basicly. Ta ta!

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

(to be a complete mirror - HJP = HJP - Hermione would have to have a surname that begins with P... Wonder how she could get that? ;).

Actually Hermione already HAD the HJP initials -- in the first draft of the book (according to JKRowling.com), Hermione's family name was PUCKLE. Hermione Jane Puckle. HJP. I guess JKR decided it might be a tad too obvious if Hermione Jane Puckle became the best female friend of Harry James Potter. Jebus, she wouldn't even have to change her initials -- but you know the old saying, "Change the name and not the letter, change for worse and not for better";)

Corblimey, girl, you can go on about this stuff forever. I'm in awe of your knowledge of mythology. I'm a bit of mythology dabbler but for someone who's half-Irish I don't know nearly enough about the Celts. If I ever stop dabbling in trying to write fan fiction I might have time to read up on it. I'll try to read that fic you recommended on Portkey about Hermione observing Harry so closely :D

[eido.livejournal.com]

Actually Hermione already HAD the HJP initials -- in the first draft of the book (according to JKRowling.com), Hermione's family name was PUCKLE.

Yeah, I remember reading that on JKR.com. Also my H/Hrness threatened to be "Flowers in the Attic"-ish with Hermione's dad finding Harry on an island or something?

I'm a bit of mythology dabbler but for someone who's half-Irish I don't know nearly enough about the Celts.

I kind of cheat though in that I have a great uncle who has spent almost his whole lifetime (he's in his 80s now) compiling the family tree. He's a major Brit History buff and has nearly gone as far back to when the Normands stormed in (or the Britons stormed back in, however you want to call it). Who knew his long-winded boring travel and myth stories would ever come in handy? ;)

[eido.livejournal.com]

... continued from my last reply since I don't know when to shut up. ;)

H/Hr = Hogwarts
Hogwarts = Celtic lunar year
H/Hr = Celtic lunar year

A year in any calendar, time immortal, can be seen as a never ending cycle of light and dark. The Celtic calendar is riddled with myths and legends about birth, death and rebirth (the tale of the Oak and Holly Kings one of the more popular). Battles of light versus dark. Good versus evil. The HP story in a whole strongly consists of history repeating itself (the Founders = the Marauders = Harry & friends?). The story beginning in the summer before school starts where Harry is struggling at the Dursleys (the muggle world) before being "reborn" in returning to Hogwarts. He starts the Fall term, leading into Christmas holidays and ends at the Spring term where Harry usually has a huge final showdown (just prior the Summer Solstice) with Voldemort or his minions. A cycle Harry and Hermione, metaphorically the characters that possibly represent Hogwarts, seem to be particularly and inescabably bound too. Is it their union the Sorting Hat may have been referring to (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/sorting_hat.html#OP_song) or else "crumble from within"?

Harry can fall in love with his own mother per se, it's a proven fact that a son will look for those qualities in his future wife and vice versa

Someone To Watch Over Me as Gershwin put it. ;) Obviously you can't take the myths too literally, whether it be for HP or our every day lives, but since HP is a fairy tale (written by a woman who's lived most of her life in Scotland surrounded by these myths), they might hold some weight. With how much Celtic symbolism is there just on the surface, quite likely *a lot* of weight.

take a look into more Celtic mythlology.

You should, it's absolutely fascinating. I feel like I'm finding similarities to Celtic myth daily in HP.

[dragon-faere.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha! Gershwin! Same genius who wrote Rhapsody in Blue?

[eido.livejournal.com]

Rhapsody in Blue, Summertime, tons of good stuff. ;)

[dragon-faere.livejournal.com]

Of course! :D Have you seen Disney's "Fantasia 2000"? One of the shorts was named that exact piece.

[needia.livejournal.com]

hopes the Ron & R/HR fans on my friends list don't beat me with reeds::)...
Hee. I ship Switzerland. I do enjoy seeing people rip into each other on FictionAlley, though.

[eido.livejournal.com]

do enjoy seeing people rip into each other on FictionAlley, though

:cringes: All those huge public HP forums have some of the nastiest shipper wars I've seen in any fandom. It's unreal.

[needia.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how people can teach themselves to automatically dislike someone who ships a different pairing. It's like little wolf packs, all 'Grr' and what not. I suppose it's like a microcosm of human nature: chuck enough people in a small enough space and they'll start finding reasons to think they're the one on top. Although the Canon forums are fairly genial. And punc-tu-ma-ation is enforced, which makes it much, much easier to browse. I think I might just go and dig my password out from the ether, come to think of it.

[eido.livejournal.com]

chuck enough people in a small enough space and they'll start finding reasons to think they're the one on top.

Some of that fighting resembles a few choice scenes in "28 Days Later". I kid you not.

Although the Canon forums are fairly genial

I'm not familiar with those. I've only lurked around Mugglenet's and Fiction Alley's forums... and yeah... 28DL.

[needia.livejournal.com]

All fans are wanky equal, but some fans are more wanky equal than others.

[auliana.livejournal.com]

Just read through these theories, and though I can't really say I understood/absorbed it all, it was again a fantastically well thought out essay. Bravo. Man, very impressed.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I'm a verbose, paranoid H/Hr obsessee. I live to be misunderstood. ;)

[longtimegone]

I've just read through your three part essay and this one and I must say you do provide some excellent food for thought! I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it all.

I hope you don't mind, but I linked to the essays on my LJ. :D

[eido.livejournal.com]

I've just read through your three part essay and this one and I must say you do provide some excellent food for thought!

Thanks ;)

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it all.

So am I. heh. I don't even remember everything I wrote. Three entries. Ugh. lol

I hope you don't mind, but I linked to the essays on my LJ. :D

I don't mind.

[notfudge.livejournal.com]

Wow.
This was wonderful and I now love you from the bottom of my pagan fangirl heart.
*adds to memories*

[stevie-jane.livejournal.com]

Considering JKs latest update included more Celtic ideas on wand woods of the trio I'd say she's fond of the mythology. You could really be on to something, indeed.