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retro_eidasI think Sam will say yes and it's going to be like when John and Bobby were possessed (Bobby's possession they conveniently reminded us of the last ep and went further actually comparing it to Sam's crazy plan re: Lucifer). They smacked Dean around some, but after a certain point (in Bobby's case, when he was about to kill Dean), they managed to fight the possession. Bobby stabbed himself after he gained back control, but John was begging Sam to shoot him with the Colt which Sam couldn't do. So, I predict Lucifer!Sam is either going to stab himself (with an archangel sword?) after Sam gains back control or Sam begs Dean to send him into Lucifer's cage in the Pit. If it's the second option, I think it will probably end much the same as Sam pointing the Colt at possessed!John in S1. They could prove me wrong, they DID have the balls to send Dean to Hell, I just don't think they have it in them to send Sam into Lucifer's cage.
Occam's Razor still says they're going to kill Castiel. It might not be permanent, but I think it will happen anyway. When he's resurrected (again), he'll have full-on heavenly mojo and go back upstairs. I only think they're killing Cas because the Jesus anvils are still banging for him (IIRC, I've only watched 5x21 once, but he landed on a fishing boat in "Delacroix"...or "De la croix", French for "Of the Cross"). However, I think human!Castiel (probably Bobby and Sam too) - those that "keep [Dean] human" - will die before any apotheosis Dean has and I do think Dean is getting one scary apotheosis in order to stop all this mess. Incidentally, I think it will be godified!Dean that will resurrect Cas, Bobby and Sam.
I do think Jimmy is gone (Cas was unconscious, you'd think Jimmy might have been able to exert control back, but the doctors apparently thought Cas was "brain dead", thus Jimmy could be "brain dead"?). With Jimmy possibly out, that means the story's Jesus Christ may now be made up in Dean (human with the Big Destiny) + Castiel (divine BFF) now. Though I always thought that's how it was or would end up, even while Jimmy was there. Dean's the one that's had the creepy, ginormous "The one who started it, is the only one who can finish it" destiny since S4. Cas has gotten a few none-too-subtle Jesus metaphors too (dying a martyr, standing under/over the "Jesus Saves" sign in AAH, the cruciform banishing light with him at the center in PONR, etc). Despite what Death says about Sam in 5x21 ("He's the only one who can stop Lucifer"), it's been DEAN the one they've been saying the past two seasons that's got to stop everything. Not to mention, when Sam tries to take up Dean's destiny, there are usually disastrous consequences (Sam tried to be the big savior last season, but unleashed Lucifer instead). I think the Sam stuff right now is just a distraction tactic and/or a means for Dean to essentially be forced into facing/accepting his apotheosis. Dean's still the one that's got to end Armageddon somehow. Probably with direct help from his other half (Cas). Though now that Cas is largely human, my guess Dean's divinity is coming toute suite. In 5x22, I'd bet dollars to donuts we'll see a reversal. Castiel will be the chthonic one (who will die, again probably along with Bobby and Sam) and Dean the celestial one. Until everything is put back in it's proper place before the very end (Dean goes back to being human, Sam, Bobby and Cas back alive. Cas goes back to being an angel). Dean can't Ascend, otherwise there's no "Supernatural" (unless S6 is taking place in Heaven, which I doubt). But Castiel can.
The fandom-pandering bunch they are, I don't necessarily see the writers getting rid of Castiel/Misha permanently, so I don't see any death being permanent. However, I don't see him being a regular in S6 either with their mentions of closing this apocalypse story out in S5. Cas getting his mojo back and going back to Heaven (probably to rule the place), keeps the option open of Cas/Misha having guest star visits in the future, thus Gamble still able to throw some nuggets at Cas/Misha's sizable fangirl contingent from time-to-time.
Occam's Razor still says they're going to kill Castiel. It might not be permanent, but I think it will happen anyway. When he's resurrected (again), he'll have full-on heavenly mojo and go back upstairs. I only think they're killing Cas because the Jesus anvils are still banging for him (IIRC, I've only watched 5x21 once, but he landed on a fishing boat in "Delacroix"...or "De la croix", French for "Of the Cross"). However, I think human!Castiel (probably Bobby and Sam too) - those that "keep [Dean] human" - will die before any apotheosis Dean has and I do think Dean is getting one scary apotheosis in order to stop all this mess. Incidentally, I think it will be godified!Dean that will resurrect Cas, Bobby and Sam.
I do think Jimmy is gone (Cas was unconscious, you'd think Jimmy might have been able to exert control back, but the doctors apparently thought Cas was "brain dead", thus Jimmy could be "brain dead"?). With Jimmy possibly out, that means the story's Jesus Christ may now be made up in Dean (human with the Big Destiny) + Castiel (divine BFF) now. Though I always thought that's how it was or would end up, even while Jimmy was there. Dean's the one that's had the creepy, ginormous "The one who started it, is the only one who can finish it" destiny since S4. Cas has gotten a few none-too-subtle Jesus metaphors too (dying a martyr, standing under/over the "Jesus Saves" sign in AAH, the cruciform banishing light with him at the center in PONR, etc). Despite what Death says about Sam in 5x21 ("He's the only one who can stop Lucifer"), it's been DEAN the one they've been saying the past two seasons that's got to stop everything. Not to mention, when Sam tries to take up Dean's destiny, there are usually disastrous consequences (Sam tried to be the big savior last season, but unleashed Lucifer instead). I think the Sam stuff right now is just a distraction tactic and/or a means for Dean to essentially be forced into facing/accepting his apotheosis. Dean's still the one that's got to end Armageddon somehow. Probably with direct help from his other half (Cas). Though now that Cas is largely human, my guess Dean's divinity is coming toute suite. In 5x22, I'd bet dollars to donuts we'll see a reversal. Castiel will be the chthonic one (who will die, again probably along with Bobby and Sam) and Dean the celestial one. Until everything is put back in it's proper place before the very end (Dean goes back to being human, Sam, Bobby and Cas back alive. Cas goes back to being an angel). Dean can't Ascend, otherwise there's no "Supernatural" (unless S6 is taking place in Heaven, which I doubt). But Castiel can.
The fandom-pandering bunch they are, I don't necessarily see the writers getting rid of Castiel/Misha permanently, so I don't see any death being permanent. However, I don't see him being a regular in S6 either with their mentions of closing this apocalypse story out in S5. Cas getting his mojo back and going back to Heaven (probably to rule the place), keeps the option open of Cas/Misha having guest star visits in the future, thus Gamble still able to throw some nuggets at Cas/Misha's sizable fangirl contingent from time-to-time.
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Date: 2010-05-07 12:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 12:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 01:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 02:49 pm (UTC)You know as much as I like Cas, I think I would hate that MORE than him dieing for real. But than I kind of hated how he was basically used as nothing but fan service for a lot of this season. Fan service is all well and good, but I need more than that.
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Date: 2010-05-08 11:35 am (UTC)That could be the motto for this entire season.
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Date: 2010-05-08 02:20 pm (UTC)Tell me about it. I just haven' been impressed at all this season. For example, I had such high hopes for Cas (don't get me started on his unseen search for God) this season but I really believe the entire reason they made him a regular character was for fan service. They could have kept him as a recurring character (have him 6-7 episodes instead of the 15??? he did get) and it wouldn't have affected the main plot and/or what little character development he did get this season at all.
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Date: 2010-05-07 06:20 pm (UTC)Re: fandom pandering - yes, this is exactly what I'm afraid of.
I found Dean and Bobby's conversation at the end pretty embarrassing and unnecessary and actually kind of laughable. Guess who everyone is ACTUALLY too hard on, Bobby! Guess! He might be sitting right opposite you! Ugh.
At least Castiel apologised to him. I am feeling better about 5.18 now, their crisis. I was half-ready for them to never actually mention it or anything.
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Date: 2010-05-08 11:53 am (UTC)Oh holy Jebus anvils, missed that completely!
Heh. Though I love the one who made the infirm walk again was Crowley. I don't think Crowley is God, but maybe directly working for Him? That could be why all those Reapers were around that warehouse. That seemed significant, they were all looking right at it and Crowley obviously thought it significant enough he took it as Death being in there. However, we know he wasn't as he was hanging out in that pizza place. Maybe there was a dying God in there (Death did say he'd reap Him one day). Crowley didn't realize it at first, but when he did he had to skedaddle to get Dean out of there before Dean went storming the castle as a suspicious!Dean does?
Guess who everyone is ACTUALLY too hard on, Bobby! Guess! He might be sitting right opposite you! Ugh.
As I recall, they only tended to be really hard on Sam when he did something incredibly stupid, selfish and/or crazy. Which has been a lot of times the past couple seasons, hence a lot of shouting and "being hard on" Sam. If Dean can get railed on for daring to consider abandoning his family by Bobby in 4x22, then Sam can take a little (from what I can tell, mostly deserved) criticism.
I know Kripke is a Campbell fanboy anyway and that's tended to make me think Bobby was probably going to die eventually, but I really do think the time of mentoring is over for Dean and Sam. If Dean needs to let go of Sam, they both likely need to let go of the daddy figure in Bobby. The time of daddies/daddying seem to be over in SPN, or at least that's how I'm reading it.
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Date: 2010-05-12 04:07 pm (UTC)I just fond your name on a comm and I was curious, so here I am.
I think your speculations are very interesting and I am pretty sure Dean will have a great role in the finale, maybe no the one people are expecting but a great one.
Mind if I hang around and frien you?
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Date: 2010-05-13 04:42 pm (UTC)Well Dean is hitting all those Messianic/Jesus anvils, yes, as is Cas (and how!). But I expect that Show will backtrack for some reason or rather, the writers will experience nasty FAIL and have Sam save the day and make up lame assed excuses as to why it wasn't Dean when they spent all of S4 building that up. I suppose they justify it by shifting their focus onto Sam this season. I agree, as you know, that this season has been disappointingly underwhelming.
Dean has been a cthonic figure, or at least associated with traditionally cthonic figures. He's more Mary's boy than John's; and the Goddess is pretty much cthonic in nature. Father figures in myth tend to be associated with Heaven and the sky, hence Heaven's male-dominated hierarchy, Michael assuming the appearance of a younger John Winchester (oh the Daddy issues, and not only the Winchesters's own! This whole frikkin' war has been about the angels's collective "Daddy don't you want/love us anymore?" issues.) and their screwing over Anna (who is not really that likeable, true). Cas is the interesting figure here: at first he was a representative of the Sky Father, then gradually he shifts allegiances over to the other side, humanity's side, that by sheer chance or not have lots of Goddess figures (Jo, Ellen, Pam; we could stretch it and say that since Team Free Will is fighting for all humanity, even put Lisa in there). And then the writers of course kill off all the motherly/Goddessly figures. Pshaw, disappointing in the extreme!
Honestly, I WISH that the writers had thought this season's arc and episodes more thoroughly before they began filming; they didn't, and results are expectedly subpar with the asspulls to save the cobbled together storyline obvious. This arc, if they had intended to close it off at S5, needed very careful plotting and writing to succeed-- and the writers have NOT done that. Heck, Stargate SG-1 and SGA did better jobs on that front. They had coherent stories, and non-arc related episodes that didn't detract from the overall storyline... writers should've taken pointers from Joss Whedon for Dollhouse, Firefly and BtVS, and Angel.
I'd rather have had Show end RIGHT at S4 finale, because then we wouldn't have had the botched laughable effort at an Apocalypse scenario that this season has been. It HURTS. What could've been the crowning jewel of the series has become the albatross about its neck.
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Date: 2010-05-13 06:09 pm (UTC)Well Dean is hitting all those Messianic/Jesus anvils, yes, as is Cas (and how!). But I expect that Show will backtrack for some reason or rather, the writers will experience nasty FAIL and have Sam save the day
*sighs* Since we are dealing with a team effort here, I'm (perhaps futilely) hoping the messianic anvils also stay team-oriented considering Sam does seem determined to martyr himself.
Though insert the massive fail if the cards get shuffled and Cas ends up the martyr to preserve the precious
stale, repetitive, derivativebromance of Show. Blah.Dean has been a cthonic figure, or at least associated with traditionally cthonic figures. He's more Mary's boy than John's...And then the writers of course kill off all the motherly/Goddessly figures. Pshaw, disappointing in the extreme!
It's at once somewhat sad, but also interesting, the closest we come to a regular goddess figure in the show is Mary... largely by way of Dean. ITA, he is more a momma's boy than he was John's son (that would be Sam). You could see it how the interactions were divided in TSRTS too. Dean had more interaction and dramatic scenes with Mary, Sam with John.
Though "Hammer of the Gods" was massive fail, Kali was the last god left standing and the only one to survive Lucifer's massacre
championing Judeo-Christianity.Father figures in myth tend to be associated with Heaven and the sky, hence Heaven's male-dominated hierarchy
Oh yes. I had a rambly post about this over on my LJ right here. I don't really get to a point about it LOL, but I definitely concur about the chthonic/female and celestial/male dynamic.
Cas is the interesting figure here: at first he was a representative of the Sky Father, then gradually he shifts allegiances over to the other side, humanity's side, that by sheer chance or not have lots of Goddess figures
I suppose they might have been reflecting that maybe in 5x03!Cas terrified of the womens, but in 5x04 he's having orgies. 5x04!Cas the much more humanized, but that Cas also very broken (by way of Lucifer's fuckery - loves the planet, hates the people on it).
Speaking of Lucifer's fuckery in 5x04, the idea of the chthonic-female and Lucifer rebelled out of unbridled jealousy (as confirmed by Gabriel in 5x19) after "Dad" brought home "the new baby"? Really does spin Lucifer as God's jilted lover with the worst Oedipal Complex ever.
This arc, if they had intended to close it off at S5, needed very careful plotting and writing to succeed
I hate thinking it, but I wonder if this is what S3 would have been like had it had a full season. That the writing on the wall would have been there then... if not for the writers' strike and them getting all that extra time to bang out the far superior S4.
we wouldn't have had the botched laughable effort at an Apocalypse scenario that this season has been. It HURTS. What could've been the crowning jewel of the series has become the albatross about its neck.
I really think they were capable of so much more too. S4 showed us that and they so easily could have built off of it. But it seems like they got their balls cut off in the S5 planning stages. I know they're mandated to have a certain amount of standalones per season. However, the tone of the season has been all over the map. "Last season was too depressing, could you do something about that, maybe?" Again, that could just be more wishful thinking on my part. *sighs*
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Date: 2010-05-13 10:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-13 11:39 pm (UTC)