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[personal profile] retro_eidas
I think God is going to resurrect Mary Winchester and use her as a vessel in the finale. When God skedaddles, Mary will still be there and very alive. Possibly as God's one gift to Dean and Sam for all they've gone through. Since I suspect season 6 may be the last season, it bookends with S1 as that was the season John was around (barring 2x01). The series begins with John and ends with Mary.

Why do I think Mary might get resurrected and will be the personification of God? Just some random stuff thrown all together. How we're just told it's possible for dead people to be vessels by way of Heaven's intervention (Adam's resurrection and likely becoming Michael's vessel). Why Mary though? Because it seems Mary is the one being depicted as having the power within the family since 4x03, while John's image has gradually become influenced heavily by ignorance, naivete, being ineffectual at defending his family (and the one way he could in TSRTS was by saying yes to Michael, which is depicted as a cowardly, weak move in SPN terms) and a deadbeat. Even Adam, when he got back, doesn't have good thoughts for him (but would have still taken a deadbeat around over nothing at all). While Mary is depicted as warrior, knowledged, the loving mother and originator of the family curse / an evil construct. Mary held out longer than any of the menfolk have against an angel (Mary vs. Anna), including her hunter sons. Mary, or at least her image, completely embodying both extremes of good and evil, which makes sense to me God Himself would embody both these characteristics. John doesn't cut it in that vein anymore. He, in fact, was depicted as God's lesser, as Michael. Much in the way John himself seems to be since the ascension of Mary.

However, the way God is depicted at the moment, maybe the S4/S5 image of deadbeat!John would be more fitting, but - hope springs eternal - maybe God will turn out not to be such a dick after all? Well, not a total dick, anyway. Despite the apathetic!God that Joshua describes, maybe God was relaying through Joshua exactly what Dean, Sam & Cas needed to hear in order for them to do what they were meant to in the Big Plan? God possibly not completely apathetic, maybe the exact opposite. God is still minding the store and steering everything in the way it's meant to, but all the while not intervening more than necessary to keep from undermining Free Will? If God is still omnipresent and omniscient, then, to me, it would be those elements of naivete and weakness that John's image has since garnered that keeps me away from the John-as-God's-vessel specs.

So, we have what I honestly see as this deconstruction of John as the story's mythic, almost godlike, personification of power to this transition of a much more human, flawed, ignorant and even weak sort of figure. While Mary has been built up replacing that personification, while at the same time not losing that image of her as the loving mother. It's just taken on a fierce, even terrifying, edge to it. As opposed to the Suzy Homebody who'd been tossed into a fridge in the Pilot by John's revenge quest (mirrored in Sam's quest after Jess' death, again when Dean died), turns out she was the progenitor of the family hunter legacy (and curse), not John. Mary is both a figure with the power of creation (Mary being very pregnant the last scene of TSRTS), but also the power to destroy (the one who made the deal that had a horrible lasting consequences on the family's lives and depicted as an evil figure at the end of DSOTM whose words alone can cut so deeply into Sam, but most especially Dean). Mary as both the creator, hope and nurturer of Dean and Sam's world AND the origin of the evils of it. Who better would personify God than Mary Winchester at this point?

All that and they probably can't get Jeffrey Dean Morgan back for a cameo.

We're also told John/Mary's marriage wasn't only imperfect despite the perfect allusions it had for seasons (and Sam himself also had that impression), but was even arranged by Heaven's machinations. Adding this falseness to the whole relationship. Not to say John and Mary didn't love each other, because I'm sure that came about anyway despite Heaven's intervention, but it gives the impression, that if Free Will had total rein over them, they might not have chosen each other. As Cupid says, they hated each other at first and took considerable effort on the angels' parts to hook them up. Then we're told the marriage itself had it's real rocky moments with John having moved out for some time, despite Mary and their two young sons at home. Possibly Free Will exhibiting itself, even after the angels finally got them together?

However, why also the dissolve of the "perfect" illusion of the John/Mary relationship? Maybe because, if Heaven hadn't intervened, Mary might have been with Bobby? Bobby who all too noticeably for several seasons loves and cares for Dean and Sam, Mary's sons, in a way John never really did. Bobby who also recently had to kill and bury his beloved Karen again. Mary would be mourning John and Bobby mourning Karen, but both could likely be using some moving on... not unlike Dean and Sam probably (hopefully) might be willing to do come S6. The co-dependence has got to end at some point.

Date: 2010-04-19 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Oh I love the idea of Mary coming back for season six and I wouldn't mind Bobby/Mary at all.

Date: 2010-04-19 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
A resurrected Mary would probably be a godsend (heh) for the boys healing process. If there is anything to my crack above, I can bet, the way they'd depict her, she'd probably be a force to be reckoned with too. She'd likely be encouraging them to step away from the hunting (trying to undo a lot of damage John did early on), as that's not the life she wanted for them to begin with. Get some kind of lives outside of it (and each other). If anyone could convince them, I'd bet it could be her.

Date: 2010-04-19 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
'A resurrected Mary would probably be a godsend (heh) for the boys healing process.'
That would be good. Even if we don't get Mary I hope the writers do something just as interesting with season six. I'm kind of worried about what they're going to do with the show since Kripke is leaving and it didn't really seem like the writers knew what to do with their main storyline this season. If I had to guess I'd say that season six will be a lot of MOTW episodes and possibly Dean having a romance with Lisa as his reward for stopping the apocalypse; if Lisa/Dean does happen I don't know how I'll feel, I just don't trust the writers to write believable romance.

Date: 2010-04-19 09:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Oh, I wouldn't doubt you're right about that. Considering Gamble loves to hook up the boys randomly and IIRC, Gamble referred to Lisa as "the perfect woman" for Dean at some point? She's probably been waiting to bring Lisa back. IDK, maybe it might be ok, I found Lisa more tolerable than some of Dean's other romantic prospects, but I'm more indifferent about her than anything. We don't really know much about her. The first time we see her again in two seasons and the scene can't really be anything else but 99.9% about Dean and Dean's fantasies? That's not the best omen of her getting any sort of character of her own.

Date: 2010-04-19 09:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
'We don't really know much about her. The first time we see her again in two seasons and the scene can't really be anything else but 99.9% about Dean and Dean's fantasies? That's not the best omen of her getting any sort of character of her own.'
True, if they couldn't do anything with Cas for most of this season (and he's a regular) I don't see them doing anything with Lisa until they need to kill her off so Dean can have an excuse to go hunting the monsters that killed her. I like the writers on this show but it seems like most of the female characters are there just to be damsels in distress, love interests, evil, killed off or evil and killed off. I do like what they're doing with Mary's character, but she was killed off too.
Edited Date: 2010-04-19 09:53 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-04-19 03:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I was nodding thoughtfully along until I reached the Mary/Bobby bit and HELL NO.


Date: 2010-04-19 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
But Bobby wants to be Dean & Sam's daddy for realz and oppress all the John-apologists! :P

And Cas/Dean are the only Aziraphale/Crowley in my mind.

Date: 2010-04-19 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
bobby and sam and cas collectively didn't manage to relieve me of my D: expression during 5.18 wrt dean

when will they show him having a moment of self-actualisation

Edited Date: 2010-04-19 08:03 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-04-19 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Probably when he goes back to Lisa. *yawns*

Date: 2010-04-19 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
OMG I'm not alone in thinking Mary could be the form that God takes when s/he finally shows up! Ever since they said God was going to show up, everyone else has been crowing for it to be JDM. Me? I want Mary.

I hadn't thought of her actually being resurrected though. I was thinking more along the lines of just using her visage to communicate with the boys... y'know, a face they'd trust.

Her being resurrected though, would be awesome.

Though I can see Mary trying to stop the boys from hunting. She never did want that life for them... (oh hello there, family drama for s6!)

Date: 2010-04-19 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Dude, I've wanted God!Mary from the beginning. Of course, I didn't think John had epic, enigmatic enough status to be God, even he hadn't gotten the dressing down in S4/S5. So he's Mr. Legendary Hunter, that makes him Orion, maybe Apollo, but not Zeus. Mary is who everyone - John, Dean & Sam - were fighting in the name of, even (and especially) back in S1 and S2. If the boys were Knights Templar, that would make Mary the Virgin Mary... or God. Just in SPN, she could end up being both.

She is also a Winchester, so she's just as apt to the resurrection trope as Dean, Sam or Adam. Cas is just adopted into the fam and even HE got a resurrection.

Date: 2010-04-19 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
He doesn't... But there's all that "epic fan love" for John that I just don't get, that apparently makes people assume he's the right choice for God.

Mary IS the only Winchester who hasn't been resurrected, isn't she? Writers, this needs fixed, ASAP.

Hey, if adopted Winchesters count, does that mean that if Bobby dies like I fear he's going to, he'll come back? *prays*

Date: 2010-04-19 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
And all that "epic fan love" tends to blind these folks of what's been happening to John the past two seasons. He's totally gotten demoted in favor of Mary in epic power scale. Apart from Dean's continued hero worship in "Fallen Idols", Dean has a MUCH more realistic view of John now than he ever did and he's no longer the bane of Sam's existence either (Sam's pretty much forgiven him, TSRTS). John's like a regular dude now. Not so much with Mary.

If Bobby dies, I totally could see him getting resurrected. Even if they delay it into S6 for suspense or whatever a la Castiel's resurrection. Hell, if Adam (he might be Dean and Sam's bro, but he's only been in two total eps. Bobby is more than family than he is!) can get resurrected, Bobby totally could.

Date: 2010-04-19 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I would love this! Especially if God turns out not to be such a dick and Cas can have his faith back.

Date: 2010-04-19 08:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
It just makes sense in my brainmeat (apart from them just not able to get JDM, but even if they could...), that if God personifies either one of the Winchester parents, it would be Mary and not John. There's just nothing mysterious or epic anymore about John, namely with the dickishness. While the past two seasons they've been working on making Mary the fierce warrior with the hunter legacy. She's both the boys' mom and the origin of the family curse, thus both a positive and negative force in their lives. Dude, that's power right there.

It is sort of simplistic the idea the patriarchy (both in John, but also Heaven-minus-God) is this negative force, while the matriarchy the positive and everyone is so fucked up because they've all been out of balance for so long (from Dean, Sam, Cas and all of Cas' brethren). So Mom's gotta come in and get with the healing (maybe slap some people around if she has to, what we see of Mary as of S4/S5, she totally could. While God obvs has "that wrath thing"), but I still could see this happening, simplistic or not.

Date: 2010-05-13 05:17 pm (UTC)
luminare_ardua: Flowerings- Lotus fractal abstract art (Default)
From: [personal profile] luminare_ardua
Mm. I would like to submit the notion of the Shekinah, God's other (feminine)half in Jewish myth. Apparently She chose to go into exile with the Children of Israel when the Temple was destroyed,and until the Temple is rebuilt, She and God will remain separated. Though apparently Kripke et al Do Not Bother Doing The Research Much.

Date: 2010-05-13 07:09 pm (UTC)
luminare_ardua: Flowerings- Lotus fractal abstract art (Default)
From: [personal profile] luminare_ardua
And in keeping with the Philip Pullman books-- the Republic of Heaven (or perhaps the Democratic Anarchy of Heaven, since Dean and Sam seem more about the Chaos than Lawful Alignment to me) FTW! since clearly the traditional hierarchy, with God then the archangels like Michael et al at the top has failed so hard it's a miracle their failness can get even more fail-ly.


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June 2010


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