(no subject)
Dec. 8th, 2009 04:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
retro_eidasBuddy TV posted some spoilers (pretty much rehashed from some recent cast interviews), however, since I'm bored as hell and freezing my ass off I thought I'd make a prediction about said spoilers...
The article does claim at the end Anna likely doesn't die in this episode. Although, if one has any sympathy for her at all, that almost seems worse with regard to Show. After all that? I don't imagine anything pleasant is remotely in store in her future, not after what's happened to pretty much everyone who've threatened, attempted to kill or killed Winchesters. If she doesn't die, she either gets away scot-free... or she suffers. Considering how Show too often treats it's female characters? I sort of know which way I'm leaning.
I also don't think it's Dean, Sam, Mary or Castiel she should really be worried about, but Lucifer. She threatens his vessel and also alters the future in such a way he might have never resurrected from the Pit?
Not to mention the fact she willingly fell to Earth... and Luci doesn't care for the "hairless apes" much.
Lucifer is going to be pissed off if he discovers her shenanigans and this seems almost set-up in such a way he's bound to. Too much of this impacts him directly for him not to.
So yeah, prediction.....
Part of the reason why I think this is going to happen is I could believe too easily Lucifer wouldn't just kill her quickly and painlessly, he'd want her to suffer. For what she tried to do and her strange, grotesque proclivities towards the "hairless apes".
Also - a more out-there reason - I did find it interesting Jo died the same way Dean did in NRFTW, torn up by a hellhound. Though Dean didn't die in "Croatoan", he was willing to die the same way Ellen did, by Sam's (who's practically like his son) side as Ellen died by her daughter's. Could be just crackspec, but this is coming off like a trend. One female character that died like Dean and the other emulating a way Dean was willing to die, perhaps another female character goes to Hell like Dean?
However, even if that did happen, it might not be all bad. Bear with me here, and I can't take the credit for this as it was![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sparseparsley's spec over on SPNP's post for these spoilers, but let's say Anna does get dragged to Hell. However, down there, she meets up with Meg. Anna convinces Meg that Lucifer isn't remotely working for her best interests and they team-up? Though I was never a big fan of Jo, I always preferred her interactions and dynamic with her mom. Unfortunately, they'd very likely share a mutual hatred of Castiel (Anna probably feeling betrayed by him two-fold post-5.13 and Meg not too happy he used her as meat bridge in 5.10). If this happens, they could be like a female version of GO's Crowley and Aziraphale. Kripke's certainly homaged Good Omens to the point Gaiman and Pratchett should probably sue his ass, wouldn't be shocked he took it a step further.
"Back to the Future II," the title of the 13th episode of Supernatural's fifth season, marks the first episode of Misha Collins' Castiel when Supernatural returns in January. It also marks the return of Julie McNiven's Anna.
With Supernatural briefly shifting its focus on its heavenly creatures, fans can look forward to a possible showdown between heaven's latest dropout Castiel and rogue angel Anna. Blaming Sam for jump starting the apocalypse, Anna plans an assassination plot and travels back in time to kill the young John and Mary Winchester to prevent baby Sam from being born.
The article does claim at the end Anna likely doesn't die in this episode. Although, if one has any sympathy for her at all, that almost seems worse with regard to Show. After all that? I don't imagine anything pleasant is remotely in store in her future, not after what's happened to pretty much everyone who've threatened, attempted to kill or killed Winchesters. If she doesn't die, she either gets away scot-free... or she suffers. Considering how Show too often treats it's female characters? I sort of know which way I'm leaning.
I also don't think it's Dean, Sam, Mary or Castiel she should really be worried about, but Lucifer. She threatens his vessel and also alters the future in such a way he might have never resurrected from the Pit?
Not to mention the fact she willingly fell to Earth... and Luci doesn't care for the "hairless apes" much.
Lucifer is going to be pissed off if he discovers her shenanigans and this seems almost set-up in such a way he's bound to. Too much of this impacts him directly for him not to.
So yeah, prediction.....
Part of the reason why I think this is going to happen is I could believe too easily Lucifer wouldn't just kill her quickly and painlessly, he'd want her to suffer. For what she tried to do and her strange, grotesque proclivities towards the "hairless apes".
Also - a more out-there reason - I did find it interesting Jo died the same way Dean did in NRFTW, torn up by a hellhound. Though Dean didn't die in "Croatoan", he was willing to die the same way Ellen did, by Sam's (who's practically like his son) side as Ellen died by her daughter's. Could be just crackspec, but this is coming off like a trend. One female character that died like Dean and the other emulating a way Dean was willing to die, perhaps another female character goes to Hell like Dean?
However, even if that did happen, it might not be all bad. Bear with me here, and I can't take the credit for this as it was
sparseparsley's spec over on SPNP's post for these spoilers, but let's say Anna does get dragged to Hell. However, down there, she meets up with Meg. Anna convinces Meg that Lucifer isn't remotely working for her best interests and they team-up? Though I was never a big fan of Jo, I always preferred her interactions and dynamic with her mom. Unfortunately, they'd very likely share a mutual hatred of Castiel (Anna probably feeling betrayed by him two-fold post-5.13 and Meg not too happy he used her as meat bridge in 5.10). If this happens, they could be like a female version of GO's Crowley and Aziraphale. Kripke's certainly homaged Good Omens to the point Gaiman and Pratchett should probably sue his ass, wouldn't be shocked he took it a step further.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-12-08 11:07 pm (UTC)i don't mean that in a "shut up with out crackpot theories and go write fic like the rest of us mortals" way, more in a "your ideas are always so awesome, you should totally write fic and i would totally read it" way.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-08 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-08 11:11 pm (UTC)It would be very delicious to see this though.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-08 11:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-08 11:28 pm (UTC)'. If this happens, they could be like a female version of GO's Crowley and Aziraphale.'
If that does happen the femslash would be biblical. ;)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-08 11:38 pm (UTC)He did. That's probably just more evidence bad things are in store for if she tries this.
If that does happen the femslash would be biblical. ;)
;D Naughty.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 03:38 pm (UTC)I'm guessing that after the angels captured her they tortured her until she went crazy so in her mind her plan will work. I wonder if Cas will feel guilty because it was his fault she got captured, and he knows what it's like to go back to angel bible camp.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 09:09 pm (UTC)I think that's a sure bet. I'm pretty sure Anna is going to be Castiel's Mary-Jessica-Ellen-Jo-Mrs.Singer. The Woman He Cared About And Couldn't Save. Seems like all the regular and frequent recurring males have this figure in their life and it's catalyst for something big.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-10 03:50 pm (UTC)That it does. At least Jimmy got to save his family- even if he never gets to see them again.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 12:39 pm (UTC)While, on the other extreme, we see the loss of Ellen and Jo in 5.10. Another devastating blow, right up there with Mary's fiery death, so it will be interesting the incidents that occur after these deaths (newest significant loss of the feminine principle). We all know what it did to John and through his metamorphosis, Dean & Sam. What's this going to do to Dean, Sam & Bobby? What's the loss of Anna going to do to Cas? And how are they all going to restore the balance? Jimmy and John both sacrificed themselves.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 06:46 pm (UTC)I wonder about that too. Maybe he'll do something drastic (it wouldn't surprise me if he sold his grace or what's left of it to Crowley*) to make sure Dean and Sam are safe because they are all he has left. He did seem to get very angry when Lucifer threatened Sam, and he has already died for Dean once.
* Making deals with demons, even when you should know better, is the Supernatural way.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 04:23 am (UTC)IDK how likely this theory is - is Marksha even in that episode? and wouldn't it be rather random for him to turn up and throw Anna into hell, especially when we know there's already a showdown between Anna and Castiel? - but I like it. Especially the Meg/Anna part.
You do bring up an interesting point that Sam and Dean are likely to see Anna very, very differently after this. That's a rather saddening thought. It's likely even Castiel doesn't have the power to get her out of hell now, but if they did, would they? She's a threat.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 06:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 11:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 12:56 pm (UTC)Mad manipping skillz, bb. ;)
Marksha even in that episode?
I have no idea dude. However, I guess it would make sense to me he might be. Anna seems to be doing so much in this episode that harshes his evil overlording, it would almost seem negligent on his part he didn't show up to deal with it himself.
and wouldn't it be rather random for him to turn up and throw Anna into hell, especially when we know there's already a showdown between Anna and Castiel?
Again IDK IDK, might make a difference depending on how that fight actually goes down. Like if Anna hands Castiel his ass and she's stopped instead by, let's say, getting talked-down by one of the boys or Mary? That might almost seem too much like there's still a looming shadow over her. Like I said above, her plan just doesn't seem like something Show would let slide (and if spoilers are right and there's chance of her coming back), without some sort of Byzantine punishment befalling her. So yeah, my mind went straight to Lucifer.
Especially the Meg/Anna part.
Or maybe Marksha doesn't show up, it's Meg (obvs a surprise attack since I doubt Meg could take Anna if she couldn't take Cas)? An army of hellhounds and demons backing her up? Hence we get the seeds of Anna/Meg that much sooner. ;)
Obvs have nothing to go on with this, but I have suspected they wanted to give us Anna-Ruby back in S4 (possibly into S5), but between Sam's arc needing Ruby around and neither Ruby or Anna going over that well with fans? It didn't happen. Fans actually liked Meg a lot and still do, so looks like if Anna-Ruby was their plan, they've gone for Anna-Meg instead. If that's so, I'd say it was a smart move. Rachel Miner seems to have more charisma and chem with the cast than I think GC did and probs would work well opposite Julie. That and I kind of wish, even if they're destined for evil or whatev, some female characters (and minorities) could stay alive / not be damsels-in-distress before the season is over. :/
You do bring up an interesting point that Sam and Dean are likely to see Anna very, very differently after this.
Even if my theory is totally Jossed, that was kind of inevitable, yeah? I just don't think there's any way someone tries to erase a main character from existence / threatens to kill a main character's whole family and those characters remotely seeing the perpetrator the same.
It's likely even Castiel doesn't have the power to get her out of hell now, but if they did, would they? She's a threat.
Even if he has just enough power (I don't think he does, sounds like it took a whole group of angels "[laying] siege to Hell" to get Dean out), Dean and Sam sort of need him. Could be kind of like Dean in the church basement in 5.02. Though he wanted to run off and save Sam, he held back for the sake of those people there. This is why I'm leaning to Anna being resourceful enough to save herself. And *le shock*, female characters that can take care of themselves? Come on, Kripke!! You gave us a morsel of capable and fierce Ellen-Jo team! There are smart, capable & fierce womens positions left vacated in SPN!!
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 11:01 pm (UTC)True. I suppose it's hard to judge whether he'd fit into the plot from the scant information we already have; Anna goes back in time, the boys + Cas follow her, there is a Cas and Anna fight at some point. Lucifer could ostensibly be slotted into there quite easily.
Like I said above, her plan just doesn't seem like something Show would let slide (and if spoilers are right and there's chance of her coming back), without some sort of Byzantine punishment befalling her.
Even if it's not Lucifer, the Anna subplot will have to be resolved in some way that doesn't leave any plot holes. If Cas or Dean or even Sam talks her down, then it raises the question of why she doesn't join them in their efforts to stop Lucifer. If she flees with her murderous intent intact, then the question becomes why stopping this dangerous rogue angel who's out for them doesn't become an important plotline. She won't die, but she has to be - stopped, somehow.
Or maybe Marksha doesn't show up, it's Meg (obvs a surprise attack since I doubt Meg could take Anna if she couldn't take Cas)? An army of hellhounds and demons backing her up?
lol but Meg can't time travel!
Aw, but I loved Anna/Ruby when it was around. :(
no subject
Date: 2009-12-10 01:31 pm (UTC)If Cas or Dean or even Sam talks her down, then it raises the question of why she doesn't join them in their efforts to stop Lucifer.
I still always wonder why they didn't ask her in "The Rapture, "Thanks for the intel about Jimmy in danger, Anna, but why don't you try to help him and his family? We can only drive so fast here." Or at least teleported them closer to Jimmy's house at least. I just chalked it up to poor writing, however, they could conceivably go back to stuff like that (pretend they meant it all along *snorts*) and suggest Anna wasn't ever 100% trustworthy, then build off of it. There are the ingredients for that there (thanks to their classy writing skillz).
She won't die, but she has to be - stopped, somehow.
ITA. I just don't think they could just take her word for it either or, at least, I'm not sure how satisfying an ending that would be. "Well, she promised to never try to kill our family again, she seemed legit when she said it!" All this gets dodgier if, like what
lol but Meg can't time travel!
After they all get back to the present bb!! ;D I wouldn't be totally shocked, after Anna (at least claims to) sees the error of her ways, transports them all back to the present.... only for Anna to get jumped by Lucifer and/or Meg for her shenanigans in the past.
Aw, but I loved Anna/Ruby when it was around. :(
Srsly tho, wasn't Anna supposed to have taken over after Castiel's (much shorter in the original plan) tenure was over? However, Cas/Misha proved to be so crazy popular, they kept him and dropped Anna down to recurring. Would make sense to me the original formula had involved some Anna-Ruby rel'p of some kind. Likely in parallel to Dean-Sam (or Aziraphale-Crowley).
They axed Ruby, so now we get Meg back. Meg who is very clearly being used by Lucifer and Anna, who I could easily see pissing off Lucifer with her mad plan ... like with Anna-Ruby, there's already some very nice set-up for common ground/mutually beneficial rel'p if Meg can see the truth about Lu and helps Anna escape. And they'd be their own unit separate from the guys as I doubt either of them would have much love for Team WinCast by that point, but they'd hate Lu more.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 07:29 am (UTC)Same. The writers were like LOL WELL JULIE IS CONTRACTED FOR THESE EPISODES BUT THE FANS HATE HER SO WE'LL JUST SLOT HER IN, HEY-O! :| And, honestly, I'd hate to see them go back and be like well look, Anna was unreliable all this time! Because I really like Anna.
After they all get back to the present bb!! ;D I wouldn't be totally shocked, after Anna (at least claims to) sees the error of her ways, transports them all back to the present.... only for Anna to get jumped by Lucifer and/or Meg for her shenanigans in the past.
Ah, now this scenario I like.
wasn't Anna supposed to have taken over after Castiel's (much shorter in the original plan) tenure was over?
Yep. Obviously the plot wouldn't have been exactly the same, but Anna was supposed to be S4's main angel.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 12:26 pm (UTC)Also, being a superior officer (like Zachariah?), was she aware of the whole prophecy BS that Castiel apparently wasn't? The whole "planetary enema" plan or at least the sentiment behind it? When she slept with The Dean in 4.10, did she know he was Michael's vessel? If so, why didn't she say anything then? Oh, that's right, poor writing. *facepalm*
I'd been concerned about Anna's arc ever since the blah of s4's midseason arc, but aside from that I watched the H&H commentary and apparently the most Sera Gamble can seem to muster commending Julie/Anna is how pretty her hair is? o.O Hell, at least Kripke had some more interesting things to say in one of those S4 special features docus (I think in the "Paradiso" section?) comparing Anna's fall to Lucifer's. Though not pleasant, at least that seems a promise of some kind of story not involving.... pretty hair? eh?
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 06:44 am (UTC)Plus, I have a thing for angels of hell. That could be good.
It could actually make me like the idea of Anna femmeslash as well.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 01:27 pm (UTC)Though I understood Anna's reasons for falling as an attempt to extol the virtues of humanity >>> Heaven, but ... the arc just didn't play out as well as it should have done. Especially for a midseason arc. The actors couldn't really salvage it either. Anna has had this arc following her around like a bad penny, despite her saving Castiel and killing Uriel in OTHOAP, people still largely refer to her as the maudlin chocolate cake and sex angel chick who fucked Dean with a "Titanic" shout-out.... while there's Lucifer trying to burn the earth, Gabriel with the whole Trickster arc and Castiel risking his life nearly every appearance for the main characters' sakes. They're absolutely killing it. Anna has a lot of catching up to do.
Anna needs something big to shake-up her story (and shake off 4.09/4.10) AND as a means to put her somewhere in the same dramatic ballpark as these other larger-than-life fallen angels if Kripke intends to keep her around. They could go for the big epic death, but we already lost two female characters this season by that method. They could have some good guy secret agenda arc, but that is often hard to accomplish satisfyingly without stepping into the main cast's turf and screentime. Another popular, easier, method is turning them darkside (or make them darkly ambiguous) which, in all honesty, is my preferred method with Anna. We haven't had many proper female villains (or dubious characters) in Show. With the exception of Meg, Lilith was pretty much relegated to the Creepy Child cliche and perhaps the less said about Ruby's and Bela's arcs the better. Bad guys are also fun to play. Maybe they could actually succeed with Anna where they failed or lacked opportunity with Bela?
Frankly, with the way Anna used to pop in, throw out some advice, but (with the exception of killing Uriel) not really do anything helpful for the most part? Especially in Show where actions tend to speak louder than words? I think her character could fit surprisingly well with the character of dubious allegiances. Better than Bela imo, since Anna also is part of the angel mytharc (and, you know, cosmic superpowers they should really let her use once in awhile. Supposedly she'll get to use them in 5.13, but that remains to be seen).
no subject
Date: 2009-12-09 03:24 pm (UTC)'
This! I always thought Bella would have made a great foil, but the writers never seeded to know what to do with her. Hopefully they'll do better with Anna.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-10 06:26 am (UTC)The actors who have done the archangels have all been good. They have the presence needed to play superior, pissed off beings.
The problem with Bela for me was that she got the best of the boys too many times. You'd think they would have learned their lesson quick, but instead, they kept letting her come back and screw them over more. The writers didn't handle her well in that respect. I don't care how pretty she was, it just didn't make sense. It made the whole thing come off like some bad fanfic where the writer was so in love with their own OFC that they threw logic out the window so the boys would keep trusting her and Sam would want to have sex with her even though she shot him.
I hope Anna finds a good place in the show as a villian who thinks they're doing the right thing. If she can do that well, maybe I'll finally be able to watch her appearances on the show without rolling my eyes non-stop.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-10 01:57 pm (UTC)Ditto. I get the impression we weren't the only ones either, which makes me wonder if they may revisit a little crazy, manic Anna in 5.13. Her plan doesn't really sound like something a totally sane person would come up with, especially knowing, as an angel, the past can't be changed (Castiel's words back in 4.03).
Another actress may have been able to lecture everyone and I'd like it, but Julie's just irritating at it.
I do wonder what Julie Benz (Layla in "Faith") or Lindsey McKeon (Tessa) would have been like as Anna. Their characters were similar to Anna in the whole h/c rel'p they had with Dean, Lindsey especially nails otherworldiness a la Misha's Castiel. However, I thought both Julie B and Lindsey had more chem with Jensen (just talking to each other) than Julie M had with him at any point. Of course, Show being ass-backwards as it sometimes is, Anna is the one Dean had the sex scene with. *rollseyes*
The problem with Bela for me was that she got the best of the boys too many times.
Ugh, yeah, that was... insufferable. A little too much OOC with the boys made to look like perpetual idiots to accomodate her / make her look better. All the writing surrounding Bela was too damn lazy.
I hope Anna finds a good place in the show as a villian who thinks they're doing the right thing.
Which was pretty much Sam's arc last season. Though one lacked empathy, though Sam hadn't agreed at the time, in his actions as a hero, Sam was a sympathetic villain / tragic hero. Maybe we should start calling her Annakin
as she sort of sucks/can't act?no subject
Date: 2009-12-10 03:59 pm (UTC)So much of this! I hated the part where Dean became a blushing virgin when Bella said she wanted to have angry sex with him. Were the writers honestly trying to say that NO women has ever said Dean was good looking?
no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 05:16 am (UTC)When I read the synopsis for this ep, I did think that it didn't sound like the most well thought out plan I'd ever heard. I mean, does Anna think the other angels won't get wind of her plan and just stop her or resurrect anyone? How can she ever hope to succeed? *points at Anna* Cuckoo, cuckoo...
The concept of Bela was good; I refuse to believe that every person who hunts is in it because someone they love was killed by a monster. There have got to be some people in there for money and sport. But the good pretty much stopped there. They went a bit overboard for me when Bela was getting million dollar bids on magickal items. I just... no.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 12:12 pm (UTC)I think there was set-up there for something really intriguing with whoever trained and taught Bela about the supernatural world (likely on her path trying to find a way out of her contract), yet apparently wasn't necessarily on the most altruistic side of the fence (of course, unless that was all Bela branching off on her own greedy path). Could have left open a whole new brand of hunter come into the picture aside from Bela. Eh. Apparently wasn't meant to be.
no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 10:48 pm (UTC)Bela's pretty much been the only hunter we've seen who did it principally for money. I'd like to see more hunters who do it for that reason, and for sport/thrillseeking. It'd be interesting.