spn - 520 - the devil you know

[retro_eidas]

• I honestly don't have much to say about this ep. Though it's amazing how we're at the third to the last ep of the season and this apocalypse still has little to no urgency. *yawns* That ep felt like total filler. Though par for the course for this "apocalypse" story, unfortunately. Someone wake me when they really want to get serious about this "apocalypse" BS.
  
  
• The ep can thank it's lucky stars Mark Sheppard is a damn good actor. Crowley was the only really interesting thing about it.
  
  
• Hey! It's the meeting of Lana Lang's crazy exes!
  
  
• Return of Sam's anger management issues. Their attempt to inject some urgency or suspense before the finale. Eh. Don't care. Just (not) blow up the earth already, writers.
  
  
• Though, Jesus, seems like they're taking pains to dismantle any sort of notion of idealism from the big romantic pairings in this show. John and Mary were paired by the angels, now we learn it was demon machinations that brought Sam and Jess together. Not to say, with both pairings, there wasn't genuine love there, but the hell?
  
  
• Prediction: Sam says yes to Lucifer, but then manages to fight off the devil long enough to beg Dean to sacrifice him for the greater good (in this case, lock Sam in Lucifer's cage along with Lucifer). Just like John in "Devil's Trap". If they had the balls to separate Dean and Sam for longer than an ep at a time to send them on their own adventures (as I don't think Lucifer's cage is anything like a conventional one)? I'd say Sam was going to the devil's magic prison. Except I don't think they have the balls, so Castiel will probably sacrifice himself somehow to separate Sam and Lucifer. Probably long enough to switch places with Sam and thus Dean is forced to condemn Lucifer and Castiel to prison instead. The angel story began with Cas, thus it ends with him.
  
  
• And honestly? THE WRITERS CAN JUST FUCK OFF IF THAT'S HOW WE LOSE CAS. OR IF WE LOSE HIM AT ALL. BARELY USE HIM TO HIS FULL POTENTIAL ALL SEASON, CHEAT US OUT OF ALL THE EPS HE WAS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR AND THEN THROW THE BEAUTIFUL, BAMF BLUE-EYED BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER OF THE ENTIRE ANGEL STORYLINE. Unless they were to use literal Hand of God 11th Hour salvation again? This overall non-event of an "apocalypse" story doesn't have me keen on S6, but if we lose Cas too...?
  
  Next week: Death flirts with Dean. Again. With extra homoeroticism.

Comments

[maboheme.livejournal.com]

You've pretty much summed up all my thoughts. I'm so bored by this Apocalypse. I just don't understand why Kripke wants to put us to sleep.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I like Crowley and all, but I sort of wished I'd rewatched "Time of Angels" instead. Thank goodness for Moff and "Doctor Who" helping me forget SPN's painful mediocrity of this apocalypse-that-isn't.

[missjigsaw23.livejournal.com]

The writers can indeed fuck off if we lose Cas. Bastards.

I'm PRAYING that the finale ends with Sammy sacrificing himself, and the cliffhanger this season is not knowing whether or not he gets locked in with Luci... Not likely to happen, but that's preferable to Cas going in...

Though look at it this way; they said season 6 could possibly be about saving a loved one, and you and I have discussed Cas maybe being that someone before... Maybe if Cas gets tossed in, season 6 is about finding a way to spring him loose, without freeing the devil, too... (I'm sure the writers would come up with SOME way to do it)... And then if the writers wanted to have Misha appear throughout the season, he could show up in Dean's dreams, or occasionally as a hallucination... and now I'm struck with the images of Dean like delirious, or something from some monster getting after him... and being worried he's gonna die (again), and he's angsting over not having gotten Cas out, and hallucination!Cas shows up to give him comfort/tell him what happened wasn't his fault, whatever...

Soooo... I could live with Cas going in IF season 6 would be about getting him out. ONLY if season 6 was about getting him out.

[eido.livejournal.com]

Part of me remembers how Kripke & co had the brass ones to actually send Dean to hell, even though a lot of people were convinced he wouldn't actually go there. So, that part is saying, yeah, they might send Sam into the cage with Lucifer. But they probably wouldn't keep him there for very long.

I've kind of stopped hoping for things with regard to this season. It's been one cocktease too many and they still might not close escrow with the apocalypse. At least not in any particularly satisfying way. Oh yay! Dean & Sam averted the apocalypse with their big ole brotherly love... so it really was a season basically about nothing! Losing Cas (for almost nothing at all) would seem just the same ole same ole with how this season has gone.

I remember Kripke mentioning that missing person quest as a possibility for S6, but - and you know I love Cas to scary, unhealthy levels - I'm not so convinced the writers would think that were an epic enough motivation for Dean & Sam to go questing on (since it's not about precious Sammy, why should Dean really give *that* much of a shit, eh? Hell, the world is burning and I doubt Dean would sacrifice Sam if it came down to it). However, if it were Dean having to find Sam and thus them having good reason to keep at least *one* of Dean's allies (CAS!!) around who has vast knowledge of all sorts of supernatural things and can defend himself? While Sam is having his own adventures without Dean? That would make for an epic season to me, but they're just not going to separate Dean and Sam like that. I really, really wish they would. It's time that relationship had a genuine and lasting shake-up. Not Sam trusts a demon over Dean and lets the devil out of his cage, but then we totally cheat on a satisfying, earned reconciliation that the beginning of this season had and... I'm afraid that's all we'll ever get with Dean and Sam. Dean and Sam might smack each other around and say nasty things to each other on occasion, but that's all superficial IMO. Dig under that surface and you can see how much they treat the relationship with the kid gloves. They're such pussies to do anything really daring with it. Hence, why I'm just tired of The Dean & Sam Show.

[thandie.livejournal.com]

"Hence, why I'm just tired of The Dean & Sam Show."
Can I join you? I can't even believe there was a time I was so much into it...but hey, there was a time when it was actually GOOD.
And the way they keep killing off interesting characters so we can have ONLY AND FOREVER the Sam&Dean show? Well, that makes me hate it even more now...I can't believe we can't have nice side characters on this show, like in any other show. Ridiculous.

I'm starting to think Cas might be a liability, but should they decide to keep him...well, if they are going to use him like they did in this season then I think offing him now would be a mercy killing. I can't see such a character waste away to NOTHING again, my heart couldn't take it.

[maboheme.livejournal.com]

I'm going to join both you. Word to everything you and eido said in this thread.

I'm starting to think Cas might be a liability, but should they decide to keep him...well, if they are going to use him like they did in this season then I think offing him now would be a mercy killing. I can't see such a character waste away to NOTHING again, my heart couldn't take it.

Word. This season has been such a let down in so many ways, with the exception of a couple of episodes. And Castiel has been so underutilized it's ridiculous. As much as I'd love to have Cas in a S6, I'd only want him around if he was given an actual role and storyline. He has such potential as a character -- so much that could be explored -- but if his character is yet again wasted and used as mere comic relief, then I rather they kill him off in the finale. :/

[eido.livejournal.com]

Castiel has been so underutilized it's ridiculous.

Then they'll just kill him off so they can "go back to the basics" with Dean and Sam. Part of me is still waiting for some more really meaningful interaction between Castiel and Dean & Sam (mostly Dean). Apart from too few select scenes this season, it's just never going to come.

He has such potential as a character -- so much that could be explored -- but if his character is yet again wasted and used as mere comic relief, then I rather they kill him off in the finale. :/

I'm constantly asking myself too many times this season, "How did anyone think that would be a good idea?" Now that we're at the end of S5 and the pathetically long delay tactic that's been this "apocalypse" storyline, I really think season 4 was only as good as it was because of all that time they wouldn't have had normally (due to the writers' strike) to tighten up the storyline. Without that extra time, we get season 5. Probably seasons 6, 7 etc etc. I hate thinking it, but I'm wondering if the writing is on the wall with regard to this show.

[thandie.livejournal.com]

"but if his character is yet again wasted and used as mere comic relief"
Comic relief. I still can't believe they have wasted him for that...remember how COOL he was in season 4? They just turned his character upside down, and ruined him completely. I still like him someway, but more because I don't have anything else to look forward to otherwise than because I really do like his character.

How did they fail so spectacularly? How could they even? I could have written better stuff drunk.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I've felt like they've been spinning their wheels with the Dean-Sam relationship since at least back in season 3. This is why Castiel's entrance was such a relief for me. Someone new for the brothers to interact with who didn't have the same rel'p as the bros have with one another! This is why I want Cas to stay. I fear if he leaves, we'll just be back to the same wheel spinning and I'm tired of it, but I feel like I can't leave completely because I know they have it in them to do better (hello, season 4). I don't know what the frak happened with this season though. The whole mytharc this season has felt like one long jerk-around.

Honestly? Cas only seems like he's there a lot of the time running on the fumes from his season 4 arc. Then again, this entire season has felt like that. Including the precious Dean-Sam rel'p. Kind of a problem since that's perpetually the cornerstone of the story (and they refuse any deviation from that path. Yet another reason why I felt they seemed to slam the brakes on any actual development of Cas and Dean's friendship. Or Cas' friendship with Sam for that matter. "Sam is my friend." Oh yeah? Since when?).

[thandie.livejournal.com]

"Kind of a problem since that's perpetually the cornerstone of the story (and they refuse any deviation from that path. Yet another reason why I felt they seemed to slam the brakes on any actual development of Cas and Dean's friendship. Or Cas' friendship with Sam for that matter. "Sam is my friend." Oh yeah? Since when?)."
And how boring this cornerstone of the story is, let me tell you. This whole thing looks more like a soap-opera IMO: static, boring, completely unrealistic and badly written all around.
Right now I think I could only buy all of this mess if they would actually have the balls to make incest canon. I swear, it's the ONLY way this would work.
Otherwise, please just stop...there's no more you can explore in that relationship that has not been said already. It's all in the open, and that's boring.

Castiel was cool in season 4, even if underused (obviously, because the writers are coward and follow religiously fan forums with Sam/Dean obsessed fangirls), but now...come on. If you decide to have a regular on, you have to use him! Bobby already was pretty much a failure for me (and now they put him in a wheelchair so they are justified when they are not using him), and they managed to ruin Castiel too. Wow, I didn't think that would ever happen, but it did.

Regarding the Dean/Cas friendship, you know that couldn't go nowhere, because Sam and Dean can only talk to each other! Come on! :/
As for the Sam/Cas, I won't even touch that. I resent it too if I have to be honest, even if it wasn't explored at all.

[eido.livejournal.com]

The saga of Dean & Sam just doesn't come off all that mature to me anymore. Like it's become too much about appeasing certain contingents of fans - or "what's exciting" in the writers' eyes - rather than what would be truly good for the story arc. When I say it's written more to be "exciting", I mean Dean and Sam get in fist fights, but that doesn't seem to really do anything to change or develop their relationship.

Don't even get me started how schizophrenic it's been written this season. One day, Sam is railing on Dean to not say yes, then the next he's considering it himself? Huh? Bobby was WTFing at Sam's suggestion, but that didn't really help things. Are we supposed to think Sam is an abysmal dumb shit who never ever learns from his mistakes and Dean the dumb shit who just keeps forgiving him? Because that's how it's all coming off to me. How are we supposed to sympathize with that? Get behind it? Worse considering the likely resolution will probably be They Hug It Out And Make Up, cuz no one wants to see the (empty, stagnant) Dean & Sam 4Evah (fallacy) ideal to end or change too much! I'll cheer if (pathetic & co-dependent) Dean - without eating a bullet immediately afterward - can, for once, genuinely choose the greater good over his own (abysmal selfish, dumb shit of a) baby brother, but I really doubt that will happen. CUZ BROMANCE 4EVAHZ!!

[thandie.livejournal.com]

LOL, I love you. This is the best summary ever.

I'm with you 100%. And just to expand with my POV: part of the reason why this all is not working for me is how much I don't like Sam (and I'm starting to dislike this Dean too now), and how much I want Dean to dump him. They had almost made it at the beginning of the season, and I was SO HAPPY that was happening, and maybe we would go somewhere exciting with that, but no.
We barely had some cute (and finally different) Dean/Cas interaction, and for me it was like breathing new air for the first time in months. They should have left the situation that way for a while, worked on that, worked on Dean/Castiel...but they had to get the brothers together again. and the funny thing is they keep saying 'oh yeah, they are still in conflict, and it's growing, woahz, isn't that an exciting change in the relationship!' and I KEEP NOT SEEING THAT. I mean, they just look at each other meaningfully, say some stupid shit and then forget about it the episode later.

For the past episodes all I've seen is the both of them driving around randomly, Castiel popping out one minute at time to be useless (couldn't we see at least ONE minute of his now ended 'research for god'?), Sam saying 'hey Dean, shouldn't we really get on on stopping the Apocalypse?' and Dean angsting about it, then they kill random things and drive away.
Wow, what a plot.

Jeez. I'm so bitter I should probably make my own post and unload, or all this disappointment is going to choke me.

[eido.livejournal.com]

And I'm the idiot still hoping that - though they didn't seem to really want to tell the apocalypse story - maybe they were holding out for the post-apoc. Though, honestly? It would almost seemed misplaced and unearned at this point unless they literally blow up half the earth and/or unleash Croatoan widespread in 5x22. How are we to see an S6 = pretty much like "The End" when they never really gave us the apocalypse to begin with? It wouldn't fit.

They're going to be back to MOTWs every ep. Gamble implied (threatened) as much in some interviews. Seriously? If Cas is gone and all we have is some miraculously healed bromance (hey! Like S3-S5 never even happened!! ITZ MAGIX!!) in S6 to facilitate said (empty, boring, DONE) MOTW stories week after week? I'm. so. very. done.

[thandie.livejournal.com]

The post-apocalypse without an apocalypse seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it? And they could never have gone all 'The End' on us because of the budget...I still think that they probably would have liked to do that if they had more money, and it would have been FANTASTIC.
But yeah, even if the budget is so low you can still work more at least on the characterization!

I don't even know, I wish those vampires at the CW had left Kripke go with his 5 years plan, maybe we would have had a different season now.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

>> That ep felt like total filler.

That's because it was.

[eido.livejournal.com]

Sad thing is, I don't think they intended it to be. There was that stuff about the Croatoan virus and anvil-dropping hints Sam saying yes (Uhm, wtf? Wasn't he just railing on Dean TWO eps ago not to say yes?? Nice character continuity there, writers. o.O) Yet the ep felt like total filler anyway. Like FAR too many eps during this "apocalypse" storyline.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

I guess all that stuff about this being the demon that killed Jessica was supposed to be all epic and stuff, but it just... wasn't. It felt more like plot revisions that don't really fit.

[eido.livejournal.com]

I just read spec it was an attempt to close that chapter of Sam's story (as Sam didn't get back into hunting to look for John so much as to avenge Jessica's killer), but... eh? Clunky way to do it, if that's the case.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'That was a Ben Edlund ep? Really?'
I know what you mean; I'm usually a fan of Ben's but his last two episodes (this one and Dean Men Don't Wear Plaid) really fell flat for me. Which is how I feel about the entire Apocalypse storyline in general. Supernatural has always been kind of bad at exploring ideas (they used Dean's 40 years in hell for little more than angst) but never this bad.

'THE WRITERS CAN JUST FUCK OFF IF THAT'S HOW WE LOSE CAS.'
I hear that! If the get rid of Cas going into season six I think that might kill my interest in Supernatural; after all this time of the show being about JUST Sam and Dean I'm just bored with it. How I wish the writers had had the stones to keep them separated for more than one episode. It doesn't help that the writers can't really keep the characters consistent from episode to episode (you'd think that wouldn't be a problem after five years).

After Sera Gamble said in an interview that the show is about Sam and Dean's epic love, I'm fully prepared for the show to go back to being just about Sam and Dean (ie. Cas dies or gets locked in the cage with Luci never to be mentioned again) in season six.

[eido.livejournal.com]

It doesn't help that the writers can't really keep the characters consistent from episode to episode

When there are times the main characters are a little too obviously rendered plot devices to push/force whatever current plot they've got going? There's a problem. Sam going from DON'T SAY YES, DEAN! to I THINK I'M GOING TO SAY YES TO LUCIFER. It's just back and forth there and it's likely almost entirely to facilitate whatever spectacle in the finale. Except it wasn't done with very much finesse at all. It just makes Sam look like a fickle idiot.

After Sera Gamble said in an interview that the show is about Sam and Dean's epic love, I'm fully prepared for the show to go back to being just about Sam and Dean (ie. Cas dies or gets locked in the cage with Luci never to be mentioned again) in season six.

I had a brief hopeful moment yesterday that - whatever apotheosis is coming to Dean - that manages to save Castiel and Crowley, deems Cas the new general of Heaven's forces and Crowley the new leader of Hell (after Michael and Lucifer are axed, obvs). Which would retain both fascinating characters as possible S6 guest stars and give us some shred of hope we won't get bogged down with the lone, treaded bromance angst show that never really goes anywhere again... but, as I said, it was a brief hope.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'It's just back and forth there and it's likely almost entirely to facilitate whatever spectacle in the finale. Except it wasn't done with very much finesse at all. It just makes Sam look like a fickle idiot.'
So true. I really hate it when writers result to making their characters hold the Idiot Ball to move the plot along.

'I had a brief hopeful moment yesterday that - whatever apotheosis is coming to Dean - that manages to save Castiel and Crowley, deems Cas the new general of Heaven's forces and Crowley the new leader of Hell (after Michael and Lucifer are axed, obvs). Which would retain both fascinating characters as possible S6 guest stars and give us some shred of hope we won't get bogged down with the lone, treaded bromance angst show that never really goes anywhere again... but, as I said, it was a brief hope.'
Oh man, I would love to see that, but I know I won't get it. The writers seem pretty incapable of expanding the universe beyond Sam and Dean. I know the show will always be about Sam and Dean but I wish it wasn't JUST about Sam and Dean. Does that make me not a true fan? Apparently I was also not a 'true fan' because I lost interest in Torchwood after RTD destroyed everything in Children of Earth.

[luminare_ardua]

Nope, I wuldn't say you weren't a true fan. I came to SPN not because of the brotherly relationships, but because they seemd to have had a master plan that was going somewhere, and because of Castiel (there! now you know my motivations!). Now that the writers have obviously lost the plot, Ill be shopping for some other TV show I can watch without feeling like an idiot, or making me want to throw things at the screen. I watch TV to unwind in a nice story with good development and characterisation, not get more stressed!

[love_jackianto1]

'Now that the writers have obviously lost the plot, Ill be shopping for some other TV show I can watch without feeling like an idiot, or making me want to throw things at the screen.'
Same here, SPN has always been kind of bad exploring ideas (I hated how they basically used Dean's 40 years in The Pit for just general angst) but never this bad. For me, it's not only did they lose the plot but they seem to think fan service is a substitute for said plot. Don't get me wrong I like fan service as much as the next person, but I need more than that.

[luminare_ardua]

Oh yeah. Come on, so much hay could have been made from those 40 years, to take your example alone. Dean should've been more obviously PTSD'd in his reactions. I mean, he was in there for 30 years getting beat up and such, then spent 10 years inflicting beatdowns to other people not because he actually wanted to, but because it was the only way to end his being hurt, which action is also something very much against Dean's own principles.

What Show seems to have forgotten or mostly ignored is that Dean's administering torture would've been worse for him mentally, than him getting beat on. There was also his corresponding lack of freedom as a pressure situation-- something that the highly individualistic and independent person Dean Winchester is would've absolutely HATED; and even as Alastair's pupil I firmly believe that Dean would've still have suffered mental abuse, even if the physical abuse had halted (ha! not bloody likely!). Him being made to torture others is one such example. Poor bastard was tormented so much I'm convinced that his torturing of others was likely done in a semi-haze, due to his being so brutalised. We could even theorize about Dean suffering some form of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) due to his time in Hell; prolonged torture presumably woud create extreme deindividuation (which would've actually helped spur Dean on to breaking and giving into demands he torture others; see Zimbardo and the Stanford Prison Experiment; Abu Ghraib comes to mind, and lots of atrocities during WW2 and the Khmer Rouge, etc.), seeing as how Hell is one giant prison/torture camp. His situation would definitely have been very likely to create a break in his personality matrix.

If nothing else, I'd expect him to be a helluva lot MORE jumpy in his reactions after 30 years of non-stop torture.

Y'know what? I'm so unhappy with how they've done this season I'm tempted to start a virtual season for SPN S5, or come up with one long ass story that covers this time period. I mean, canon has fucked up so much I don't think fanwriters could do any worse. Well, not the self-respecting fanwriters who actually plan stories as opposed to pre-pubescent fangirl types...

[love_jackianto1]

Sorry it took so long for me to reply back.

'If nothing else, I'd expect him to be a helluva lot MORE jumpy in his reactions after 30 years of non-stop torture. '
So true. But like I said I hated how it was used for general angst.

'Y'know what? I'm so unhappy with how they've done this season I'm tempted to start a virtual season for SPN S5, or come up with one long ass story that covers this time period. I mean, canon has fucked up so much I don't think fanwriters could do any worse. Well, not the self-respecting fanwriters who actually plan stories as opposed to pre-pubescent fangirl types...'
You should do a virtual season five.