(no subject)

[retro_eidas]

I can't believe this only just dawned on me, but I hope Nick really was all burned away when Lucifer was killing all those women and children of Carthage. Considering he seemed to only say yes to Lucifer to begin with due to his being vulnerable as his wife and child were recently murdered. I suppose that is what one should expect from agreeing to be Satan's meatsuit, but still. *cringes*

Though it's almost like Nick, indirectly, becomes something like the Lady in White. A vengeful, mourning spirit that punishes all those that cross their path, their pain shall be that unlucky traveler's pain. Just as Nick lost his wife and children, so is Lucifer out killing wives/mothers and children. Lucifer - who first appeared to Nick as his wife dressed in white - the facilitator of that horrible vengeance. Lucifer used the word "justice", but we all know what must have been underneath that, for Lucifer and Nick. Some terrible, desperate desire to lash out at the world and God for the wrongs befallen them.

Comments

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

Wow, I never thought of that. If Nick is still in there, that's some incredibly sad irony. I guess he learned something about the devil being a seductive liar, as it is said.

[eido.livejournal.com]

It's also interesting we learn about Nick's wife (mother of his child) and child's deaths, thus making Nick vulnerable to Lucifer's offer, but as 5.03 tells us and with Nick "wearing a bit thin", Nick pretty much signed his own death the moment he said yes to Lucifer. Basically, the coming of Lucifer ultimately led to the death of an entire family (the one thing Dean is determined to save and convinces Castiel to help him escape the Green Room in 4.22). However, all this like it's precursor to Lucifer's eventual entrance, the death of this family. In 5.10, the women and children of Carthage died first, followed by the men, and all of which were sacrifices to raise Death. Basically, this seems to put the coming of Death directly synonymous with Lucifer.

Between the title of 5.10 being the words on the gateway into Hell from The Divine Comedy and Revelation 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%206:8&version=KJV)? I'm thinking the first half of this season really has been nothing but the calm before the storm and the second half is going to be a whole lot darker. Hell will be coming on Death's heels.

On a more personal note for Dean & Sam, we see Ellen and Jo die, another mother and child combo and the last of the Harvelle family. All with Lucifer breathing down Sam's neck, while another angel - Michael - lurking out there somewhere wanting to take over Dean. You can bet that Dean feels guilty as hell about what happened to Ellen and Jo. Guilty enough to come closer to saying yes to Michael? Maybe, though I don't think he was quite that close to Ellen or Jo to be that desperate or guilt-ridden yet. Bobby, Castiel and/or Sam dying though? That's another matter entirely.

Interesting too how Jo died the same way Dean did in "No Rest for the Wicked". Though I doubt we'll see Jo get a resurrection. I'm not really implying some deeper connection between Dean and Jo there, but that Ellen's and Jo's deaths were perhaps symbolic of Dean losing something within himself. Maybe not so much unlike the things 2014!Dean lost that made him how he was. The death of his inner feminine principle? Joseph Campbell considers women symbolic of life, love and propagation of life, a lot of which was almost completely devoid in 5.04 (women weren't treated that well and the one child we see is infected by the Croatoan virus). Might we see a more hardened, less merciful Dean in the second half of S5? Though I don't imagine he'll be anything like 2014!Dean, but perhaps shades of that Dean in the current Dean?

Suffice to say, I'm hoping whatever Dean might have symbolically lost inside himself in 5.10, the loss is only temporary (or he rediscovers it before he goes too far darkside) and he doesn't become vulnerable in the same way Nick was (or comes to the point of desperation and guilt of 2014!Dean when he began saying yes to Michael to no avail). This Dean still has Sam & Bobby and Castiel is still technically an angel (though he's losing his powers).

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

Nick definitely didn't make himself a good deal. He probably didn't consider that getting even with God would mean killing innocent families just like his own, but those are the pitfalls of dealing with evil on this show. :D

I don't mind the rest of the season being darker so long as there's SOME hope, and they don't just kill off people one by one. And Cas CAN'T DIE. XD

[ibroketuesday.livejournal.com]

Yeah, true. Poor Nick - if he comes back, he'll be crazycakes.

[elvisglasses5.livejournal.com]

I forgot all about poor Nick. I wonder if he's aware AT ALL in there, and if maybe the decay of the vessel is in (small) part a rejection of Lucifer by Nick? Like some kind of rejected organ transplant situation?

[eido.livejournal.com]

With the whole "wearing a bit thin" business, I'm thinking if Nick is anywhere still in there, he's probably in drooling vegetable territory. Though I still don't get if it's the mind, the soul or both effected by crazy powerful angel possession? Does angel possession burn your soul away? Eh. IDK I'm just musing now. I'll admit though, apart from someone with severe mental retardation or brain damage, Raphael's empty vessel also reminded me of someone whose had their daemon cut away in the His Dark Materials trilogy.

[eido.livejournal.com]

maybe the decay of the vessel is in (small) part a rejection of Lucifer by Nick

That's an interesting thought. I think Nick's mind is probably gone by now, but Nick's soul/body rejecting Lucifer after what Lucifer has done? I really like that. It's probably not what's happening (Lucifer implies it's because Nick can't contain him, then again, Lucifer is a LIAR. I don't care about his truthiness speech in 5.01).

However, if some part of Nick is fighting the possession, that could leave hope for Dean and/or Sam if it should happen one or both get taken over by their respective archangels (whether that's possession or like what happened with Anna). We could have a clue in Bobby in 5.01 and Julia (Jesse's bio-mom) in 5.07, both fought or were broken free from demon possession and both when their son (or almost son in Bobby's case) was under threat. If that is a clue, I'd guess it's Dean that is overwhelmed by Michael's presence, but it's when he threatens Sam (not Samifer, just Sam) that Dean manages to gain back control of himself.

[eido.livejournal.com]

What I think is so interesting about Nick (and just about every other character we've ever seen succumb to temptation and make some Faustian deal) is how vulnerable Nick became upon the loss of his wife and child. It's a very Campbellian idea, and SPN happens to be a very Campbellian story, that the loss of the feminine leads to very bad things. Or, at least what the feminine often represents in the Hero's Journey, life, love, propagation of life in children, etc). In the absence or loss of this, results in the direct weakening of a noble figure. John lost Mary, he turned into obsessive zealot hellbent on revenge. Sam loses Jessica and then Dean, he becomes John (post-Mary's death). Dean loses Sam, he also becomes John. Castiel loses both his angel brothers and Dean, he loses not only his powers, but his faith.

Intriguing too, though we're told in 5.02 Cas isn't as strong as he was - after Ellen and Jo died - we witness Cas no longer able to exorcise demons. 5.04 - a story with so little life, love and hope and personified in cold-blooded leader future!Dean, using women and his friends like they're meat - no matter how hard that Dean screamed yes to Michael, he never became Michael. 5.04 is also when the angels abandoned Earth. It does seem that the feminine (human) principle is being depicted in direct conjunction with the presence of the divine / divine power. Lack of this principle = lack of divine presence?? If that's the case, maybe when/if Dean should accept he's his mother's son as well as his father's, this is when he'll get Michael superpowers? [/crackspecs]

UGH I CAN'T DEAL WITH CAS DYING OK?! It's so weird, but I think I can actually handle Dean's or Sam's death(s) more than I could Cas'.

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

There is something excessively vulnerable about Castiel to the point that it almost makes me want to bawl my head off, the thought of him dying on camera. Although Sam is also like a vulnerable little puppy at times, it seems more like he and Dean can take care of themselves. Cas is still so out of his element. I want to look after him half the time. And Jimmy was such a sweet, vulnerable guy too. I don't want anyone out of the three to die this season, but Cas is the one I'm most afraid for.

Plus the "die and be resurrected" thing has been done to these guys too many times as it is. There are so many other ways they can be hurt and maimed; I hope they find something else to do to them. :D