(no subject)

[retro_eidas]

Ok, this won't be much of a spec unless I find that passage in Hero with a Thousand Faces I'm looking for and I've been nosing through it for the past 10 min and can't find what I'm looking for. In any case, there has been plenty of spec around OG and elsewhere that the explosion we see in the midseason and "The Sound of Drums" promos....

....Is Martha's flat getting blown up.


An explosion in an apartment with a bay window and orange curtains. Considering the danger likely in store for the Doctor and Martha in the finale? I'd probably say it is a fairly safe bet that is indeed Martha's flat going boom.

Why am I bringing up Campbellian metaphor attached to that? In many stories that follow the Hero's Journey, a catalyst is sometimes needed to push the Hero into his/her Departure (usually when the call is rejected or possibly about to be if the Hero is facing a choice) and stepping through the First Threshold. Sometimes painful or symbolic and often in the literal destruction of the home. Luke Skywalker's aunt and uncle were murdered and his home was burned down. In Full Metal Alchemist, the Elric brothers burn down their home before they set off to find the Philosopher's Stone. Harry Potter's parents are murdered and his home demolished. Arthur Dent's home and planet are demolished before he heads off with Ford. Of course, the difference seemingly being between these Heroes and Martha Jones, instead of the destruction of her home happening at the beginning, it's seemingly in the finale of this season, or as some speculate, the end of her travels with the Doctor. However, if Martha's story does follow along the Campbellian archetypes, the destruction of her flat would make me think Martha's journey has only just begun (also tied to what I'm going to assume is an imminent catharsis for the Doctor and his issues, namely with Bad Wolf). Symbolized by the destruction of her flat. That she has yet to actually step through the Threshold and something has been holding her (and possibly the Doctor as well) back.

Now this might mean Martha may go on - due to being forever altered by her time with the Doctor - setting off on a new, perhaps drastically different path in life but not one that necessarily ties directly with the Doctor. However, Martha is something of a late bloomer where her companionship has been concerned. She didn't become "official" companion until "The Lazarus Experiment" and since then she's still often been undermined by the Doctor via the shadow of the companion that came before her. It's like she hasn't yet been able to completely become a proper companion with the Doctor unable to move on from his various issues. Kind of like Martha being Jonah and the Doctor is (or his issues are) the whale or perhaps for Who, Martha is Red Ridinghood and the Doctor is the [bad?] wolf. The Doctor himself consumed by memories of the companion (aka, "Bad Wolf") who came before Martha and thus keeping Martha unintentionally at arm's length. IOW, the Doctor also as Red Ridinghood trapped in the belly of the [Bad] Wolf.

The idea that the passage of the magical threshold is a transit into a sphere of rebirth is symbolized in the worldwide womb image of the belly of the whale. The hero, instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold, is swallowed into the
unknown, and would appear to have died.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces, pg90 (The Belly of the Whale), Joseph Campbell

Allegorically, then, the passage into a temple and the hero-dive through the jaws of the whale are identical adventures, both denoting, in picture language, the life-centering, life-renewing act.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces, pg92 (The Belly of the Whale), Joseph Campbell

That although the Doctor gave her a key and says she was never really just a passenger, at the same time she has been made to feel not entirely full-fledged either. Like this whole season has basically been the Doctor and Martha at the cusp of the Threshold, while Martha has desperately been trying to push him through... but he's been (again, unknowingly) extremely stubborn and resistant. Like he's terrified to take that final step, but until he does, the journey and their lives (and relationship) remain stagnant. They're both trapped in the belly of the beast. One way or another, the Doctor is going to have to breach that Threshold and most likely with Martha's direct assistance/guidance. It's interesting to note that in that same chapter of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, it mentions the Osiris myth (being trapped in a sarcophagus by his brother Set = belly of the whale). Upon return - rescued by Isis - his brother Set tears him into fourteen pieces. We're reminded of the Doctor's loss of his hand in "Utopia" from all the way back in "The Christmas Invasion". Of course, if there is any similar symbolism being used here via the Osiris myth, this would seem to indicate the Doctor possibly not being quite right - "torn to pieces" - all the way back in "The Christmas Invasion" (possibly indicative of the regeneration going not very smoothly at all). Since having the vortex within him in "The Parting of the Ways"? He has - perhaps literally - been consumed by Bad Wolf and he's been in it's belly for almost two whole seasons. A(n emotional and physical) sarcophagus - literal in the case of "The Last of the Time Lords" (as according to the press release he's being held prisoner by Saxon) - from where he's waiting to be released. Who holds the key in releasing him? Probably the one the Doctor gave the TARDIS key to back in "42". Also the one who liberated him from the Sun possession. Who brought him back to life not once (restarted his hearts), but several times. Not unlike how Isis brought Osiris back to life from being sealed in the sarcophagus and put him back together after being torn to pieces by Set.

It does make me think Martha kind of must still be in season 4 and the Doctor's companion and her real Hero's Journey (as his companion) won't start until either "The Last of the Time Lords" or the season 4 premiere. After the Doctor can be liberated of those issues holding him - and his relationship with Martha - back. Then the relationship, the Hero's Journey, can truly start for the both of them.

Comments

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

The most recent myspace entry on Martha's journal says she's gone back and read all the previous entries and this helps. So I went back and read them all last night. There is a lot to suggest that her time travel has changed her and that she's started to feel separate from her family (even before meeting the Doctor).

I'm sure this season there was a line spoken by the Doctor that was something like: "The ability to face death is part of being human."

All through the season Martha's been on the cusp of that point. There's even a blog entry where she mentions seeing a patient die in front of her and that was the first time she'd experienced death in a big way outside of her cousin dying - because the patient died right in front of her.

All through the season Martha's nearly died and it's been hinted at but she hasn't been ready to die - the choice either hasn't been hers to make or she's been whipped out of harms way at the last minute (again, outside of her own choosing even though the intervention is welcome). Crossing the Threshold would be the choice to die to save everyone. Or to make a drastic choice that equals death for the life she once lead - because she'll never be that same person again after making that choice.

You are right about this being the start, but it's also an end in a way.

Only thing I think you're missing is that the Doctor being immersed in his Rose issues is part of his journey too - and that his and Martha's journey's are now interwined in a way that her call to adventure is what resolves his being ironically, for it's what he referred to Jack as, stuck in a fixed point in time.

I do sense a rebirth for Martha and by proxy that it might drive the Doctor to a new threshold (maybe one explored in the Christmas episode). I do think she will appear to have died but won't have.

I think something was amiss since the Doctor regenerated and the loss of Rose was a hint and that's what tore him to pieces. Then Donna came and gave him another hint. And then Joan, and then Jack, and then The Master, and finally now Martha. He's had hints all along but it hasn't stopped him. I think what happens in the finale with Martha will finally throw it in his face and he'll have no choice but to pay attention.

However, I think that Martha might initiate her own path away from her family and the Doctor, and that when he is without her he'll realise that he needs her less as a Companion but more as an equal. So when they do come together it'll be a totally different kind of relationship that both of them are open to learning from.

[darenothope.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting and in depth and if I wasn't so sleepy and hungry I'd write a lengthier comment.

First off ... I agree that Martha's apartment is blown up. I think Jack and the Doctor stop off at her apartment where she gets a change of clothes. There's a shot in the trailer of the Doctor in front of a green wall which I think is Martha's apartment.

Someone suggested that in the process of her saving the world, possibly by herself, that she could die. She has to sacrifice herself to save the world. I think she's going to have to choose between her family and the Doctor. I think maybe Saxon has them both captive and she has too choose and then in the end she can't choose between them. No matter how distant she feels she is to her family and no matter how much she thinks the Doctor doesn't care for her she won't be able to choose. So she might suggest herself, even though there is that looming threat of death. Although Saxon might be all "Why would I want you??" That might be too fanfic-y. But I think she'll be ready to die.

I think her apartment blowing up and her family being involved with push her to start her journey. She's going to want to step up because before it was only her life on the line and now it's her family as well.

I think she will be in season 4. I don't know what the cliffie for this season will be but I think she'll be in season 4. And season 3 was Martha nd the Doctor's kinda transition period. A long one. And after all they've been through they finally went that one step further and can be proper companion and Doctor.

... hopefully that made sense. I'm half asleep.

Great post.

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

You know what's interesting here is that Martha is almost a doctor and that doctor's have their Hippocratic Oath and duty to their patients. So given the choice of Doctor or her family. Martha might trump both and opt to save the human race period.

I also think Martha will be in S4 but maybe she might be missing in the Christmas ep and that the first few eps will deal with finding her and then what she's been involved in during the time she's been lost. And then they'll have a few adventures that broaden their growth as characters and their relationship and then they'll maybe have to part ways.

[darenothope.livejournal.com]

Martha might trump both and opt to save the human race period.
Yes, I didn't think of that. I think that's a very likely option. The good of one vs the good of many.

I think she'll be slightly absent in the Christmas ep, what with the apparent stunt casting of Kylie Minogue. Her and the Doctor on the quest to find Martha in the Christmas special, maybe?

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, for some random reason, I've always considered the Kylie character to either be a brief cameo, or an oracle figure of some sort. I don't know anything but I always think of her guest appearance like that.

[cedara]

I do hope - if she really is in the Xmas one - that she plays an unrecognizable alien. And doesn't sing.

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

lolz!

I don't think she'll sing but I don't think she'll be unrecognisable either.

Maybe something like the Green Fairy in Moulin Rouge, then?

However, if she says a line like: "You have lost somebody." I will go to my grave laughing.

[cedara]

I will go to my grave laughing.

Hee.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

Hurray for you, bringing in Joseph Campbell because...well, because it exercises my brain! I love your point here -- and the clincher is quite simply that the theme of rebirth has been all over this season like slime on a slug. (Ooo...just made that up...I quite like that...why am I chanelling the Dcotor?) (BTW, am I the only one who noticed the Master sounding exactly like Lazarus in that "reborn" speech?) Anyway, the idea of catharsis and rebirth into the hero's journey is clearly on the right track, both for Martha and the Doctor. And yes, the catalyst for Martha would be blowing up her flat -- and we just saw the catalyst for the Doctor -- he lost the Tardis! (Well, ok, he does that a lot, but still...)

One more mythology needs to be brought in -- one which I think is even more germane than other ancient cultures -- Christianity. We were set up for heavy Christian allegory right from Gridlock and into Lazarus. Seems to me the Doctor is in for a little wandering in the Wilderness, facing the temptation of the devil. Let's see if we spot any of that in the coming two eps.

I love the fact that your approach echoes what I was saying in LifeOnMartha about the Doctor being in some sense altered by the vortex experience going all the way back to PotW, and that this has created the "vengeful god" persona we've seen for two seasons. Which...hmmm...makes me think about the kinder, gentler New Testament god replacing the vengeful Old Testament god... So that's who we're likely to see in Season 4...

(Before anyone jumps me, I'm speaking entirely academically here...I'm actually Jewish and am in no way personally endorsing the superiority of the New Testament over the Old!)

Eido, thank you SO much for this thought-provoking thread! But not for completely distracting me from the work I'm SUPPOSED to be doing...:)

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

Just replying to myself to suggest that you might want to post to some of the comms linking over here -- you did such great work laying out some interesting spec/crit, I'm sure others would enjoy it. (I found a link in one of your responses on the comm -- if you've already posted elsewhere, never mind!).

[eido.livejournal.com]

I'm sure this season there was a line spoken by the Doctor that was something like: "The ability to face death is part of being human."

"Facing death is part of being human" in TLE. That whole scene with Lazarus at the end really goes into that.

I do sense a rebirth for Martha and by proxy that it might drive the Doctor to a new threshold (maybe one explored in the Christmas episode). I do think she will appear to have died but won't have.

Then we have a human like Jack, who faced death and conquered it (by way of 'Bad Wolf' who couldn't control the time vortex inside her). The Doctor seems to have made some kind of peace with Jack's state (partly due to Jack being a good sort of man even if he may not trust him completely but also the immortality resulting in something he had no control over). Considering this confrontation and resolve seems to have come in the first part of the 3-part finale? I have wondered if this may be leading to something specifically regarding how Martha may choose to die to save the world. How - erm, barring this choice not being a permanent one - it may (physically) change her and also how the Doctor responds to that.

However, I think that Martha might initiate her own path away from her family and the Doctor, and that when he is without her he'll realise that he needs her less as a Companion but more as an equal.

"There's someone for everyone." I have often wondered if they made Martha a doctor-in-training in the beginning (inevitably leading to her becoming a doctor herself, either in the finale or early S4), tying synonymously with her eventual role in the Doctor's life. Symbolically and literally Becoming A (or The) Doctor, an equal. Now it's apparently on Martha Jones shoulders to save the world? Certainly fitting, isn't it?

Although let's hope she doesn't end up with a (metaphoric) pigface.

So when they do come together it'll be a totally different kind of relationship that both of them are open to learning from.

Shanti, Shanti, Shanti. Isn't that what the end of The Waste Land is about? That after so much bleakness and despair, the capacity to look at something from a different perspective can give a sense of hope?

[eido.livejournal.com]

Someone suggested that in the process of her saving the world, possibly by herself, that she could die. She has to sacrifice herself to save the world. I think she's going to have to choose between her family and the Doctor. I think maybe Saxon has them both captive and she has too choose and then in the end she can't choose between them. No matter how distant she feels she is to her family and no matter how much she thinks the Doctor doesn't care for her she won't be able to choose. So she might suggest herself, even though there is that looming threat of death.

I could definitely see this happening. The Master, her family and the Doctor pulling at her from these different sides but she chooses none of them. Walks the Middle Path like Buddha and ends up rising higher than all of them, an Apotheosis of the finest order.

[eido.livejournal.com]

An addendum to the extent or nature of Martha's "change", it's something I've been kicking around since the end of "Gridlock". Ok, we knew at the time that the Doctor was most likely wrong (or half-wrong) in denying what the Face of Boe told him as having to do with living Time Lords (proven wrong - and specifically how - in "Utopia"). However, I just can't shake the notion that if the Doctor was wrong about that, if he may have also been wrong in negating (allbeit, understandably) Martha's thinking "You are not alone" might have to do with her. With the whole Chameleon Arch thing and the vague possibility of that "Something close that I can't see" (TSC) line maybe meaning more than just the Doctor's inability to see how he's hurting Martha / keeping her involuntarily at arm's length as companion? Totally could just be me being cracky and paranoid (per usual), but... it's been niggling at me for nine eps now.

[eido.livejournal.com]

So given the choice of Doctor or her family. Martha might trump both and opt to save the human race period.

Since I've been on a whole Campbell kick lately, I might as well keep the ball rolling, but this strongly reminds me of something I read in The Power of Myth about the Holy Grail:

CAMPBELL: There's a very interesting statement about the origin of the Grail. One early writer says that the Grail was brought from heaven by the neutral angels. You see, during the war in heaven between God and Satan, between good and evil, some angelic hosts sided with Satan and some with God. The Grail was brought down through the middle by the neutral angels. It represents that spiritual path that is between pairs of opposites, between fear and desire, between good and evil.

The theme of the Grail romance is that the land, the country, the whole territory of concern has been laid waste. It is called a wasteland. And what is the nature of the wasteland? It is a land where everybody is living an inauthentic life, doing as other people do, doing as you're told, with no courage for your own life. That is the wasteland. And that is what T. S. Eliot meant in his poem The Waste Land.

In a wasteland the surface does not represent the actuality of what it is supposed to be representing, and people are living inauthentic lives. "I've never done a thing I wanted to in all my life. I've done as I was told." You know?

The Power of Myth, pg 224

Weeping Angels, Archangel, the Doctor as God and the Master as Satan and an Eliot (tying to TLE) reference. Martha as one that seems prone to walk the Middle Path, the middle child trying to be peacemaker and find balance in her own warring family? I could imagine she could fit the bill of those "neutral angels". Through her choice of path, helping the Doctor come to peace within himself, looking at things through a new perspective (for her, humans and maybe the Master too).

[eido.livejournal.com]

I probably wouldn't complain to loudly if she chose to sing "Slow" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWtaGn9kg2U)
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Stop looking at me like that.

[eido.livejournal.com]

the theme of rebirth has been all over this season like slime on a slug.

Definitely. From the very first episode even and in a huge way, you've got the whole CPR and the Doctor carrying Martha (into a bright white light which takes her home... Bright white light is usually synonymous with a Heaven metaphor on film). You also have the prevalence of the Sun and Moon (mythic / symbolic connotations as regenerative).

(BTW, am I the only one who noticed the Master sounding exactly like Lazarus in that "reborn" speech?)

Not only that, but didn't Yana's device (after the Doctor fixed it and powered it up) sound remarkably a lot like Lazarus' machine? Vaguely TARDIS sounding. I'd be hard-pressed not to see a parallel between the Master and Lazarus. Lazarus already has a Saxon connection as it was apparenty Saxon who commissioned Lazarus' work with that machine. I suppose the regenerations he has left weren't enough on his quest for immortal godly status? And/or it all goes back to some sort diabolic plan to reconstruct Gallifrey via Earth/humans. Wouldn't be much of a Gallifrey if your loyal minions - scientists, doctors, soldiers, etc - die on you after 60/70 years tops. The promise of eternal life - a utopia (or a Garden of Eden, going back to the potential Christian symbology) - would also be one hell of a campaign slogan.

and we just saw the catalyst for the Doctor -- he lost the Tardis! (Well, ok, he does that a lot, but still...)

And hear I go thinking about dismemberment and Osiris again... but the guy has been separated from the TARDIS more times this season than he has previously IIRC. He's also lost the sonic several times (usually restored by Martha).

One more mythology needs to be brought in -- one which I think is even more germane than other ancient cultures -- Christianity.

Oh certainly, Rusty's Christianity symbolism hasn't gone amiss (although I'm not sure how anyone could miss it after "Gridlock", then HN/FOB is the whole none-too-subtle Last Temptation of the John Smith storyline). juanitadark and I were actually recently discussing The Matrix similarities to this season in particular (http://eido.livejournal.com/85754.html?thread=431866#t431866). If you're wondering why that's relevant, the big Gnostic themes in The Matrix can tie to Who as well (Rusty has been using Gnostic themes/symbolism fairly avidly since the first season). "Parting of the Ways", for example, was one big Gnostic luvfest.

Speaking of Gnostic themes, haven't there been an awful lot of occassions this season where the Doctor either admits to not seeing something (that anvilicious TSC line while they were in bed, to name one), not getting something (pretty much the whole Doctor/Martha relationship in S3 right there), John Smith's whole character as a false identity / dream-like life and even literally blinded (couldn't open his eyes in "42" in fear of letting the vengeful Sun out). Then we have the blind Weeping Angel assassins who only "see" when you're not looking at them. The bliss - or Bliss drug - of ignorance that helped lead to the death of New Earth, a bunch of people would rather be drugged out of their minds like a proper Orwellian dystopia than face the reality of every day life (and they all died for it) thus ignorant of the danger of the Virus that destroyed the society, a true wasteland as Eliot might say. Blindness and ignorance vs Seeing and Gnosis, a very big theme right there in Gnosticism (and, apparently, in Who).

I love the fact that your approach echoes what I was saying in LifeOnMartha about the Doctor being in some sense altered by the vortex experience going all the way back to PotW

You see, I always thought it was more a figurative mutation inside him. Like how his Rose-emo is hurting him and his relationship with Martha, keeping him from moving on with his life. Metaphorically swallowed by the Bad Wolf. However, you also made me think the mutation might be a literal, physical one as well. Not an angle I'd considered but it's definitely an intriguing one and one that would make a lot of sense. It should be fic'd even if it doesn't make it into canon.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

OK, now I've really died and gone to heaven. I love this stuff -- but I confess to a shocking and total lack of familiarity with the Matrix movies, never having seen them. (They are now going to the top of my Netflix list.) But the whole gnostic theme -- ooo, I'm liking that. (There too I confess to a quick visit to Wikipedia to refresh my memory -- that's my age showing again -- it's been two decades since college.)

Anyway, now that you've got me going along this line, here's something I ran across in Wikipedia that just SCREAMS Doctor Who. (For the full article, click here.)

"In many Gnostic systems, the various emanations of the God, who is also known by such names as the One, the Monad...are called aeons....The aeons often came in male/female pairs called syzygies, and were numerous (20-30). Two of the most commonly listed æons were Jesus and Sophia. The aeons constitute the pleroma, the "region of light". The lowest regions of the pleroma are closest to the darkness; that is, the physical world.

When an æon named Sophia emanated without her partner aeon, the result was the Demiurge, or half-creator (Occasionally referred to as Ialdaboth in Gnostic texts), a creature that should never have come into existence. This creature does not belong to the pleroma, and the One emanates two savior æons, Christ and the Holy Spirit to save man from the Demiurge. Christ then took the form of the man, Jesus, in order to be able to teach man how to achieve gnosis; that is, return to the pleroma."

OK, read the above with the following in mind:
Monad = time vortex embodied in Tardis
Sophia = Rose
Demiurge = Jack
Christ = Doctor
Holy Spirit = Martha

Cuz after all, Rose created the immortal Jack, a being who should never come into existence, as the Doctor just told us straight up in Utopia.

The only trouble with this is where the Master fits in, because he's really the one Martha and the Doctor must save humanity from. Which brings up a really troubling prospect -- the rumors that Jack is somehow in league with the Master... I absolutely adore Jack and I dread hearing any evil of him! But the parallels here are so unbelievably clear...

Thank you SO MUCH for opening this whole vein of thought, Eido. I just love all this mental masturbation.

So, whaddayathink?

[eido.livejournal.com]

I confess to a shocking and total lack of familiarity with the Matrix movies, never having seen them. (They are now going to the top of my Netflix list.) But the whole gnostic theme -- ooo, I'm liking that. (There too I confess to a quick visit to Wikipedia to refresh my memory -- that's my age showing again -- it's been two decades since college.)

If it helps at all, here's a some of the Gnostic and Buddhist themes in The Matrix (http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/gnostic.htm) in essay form. You'll probably be sitting there like I was picking out all the similarities to this season of Who like big fat juicy grapes of nerdgasm.

OK, read the above with the following in mind:
Monad = time vortex embodied in Tardis
Sophia = Rose
Demiurge = Jack
Christ = Doctor
Holy Spirit = Martha

....The only trouble with this is where the Master fits in, because he's really the one Martha and the Doctor must save humanity from.....

The system you mention above is still in play (although I go back and forth whether I'd think the TARDIS herself falls into the Holy Spirit role in this case, she is sentient after all) as that is the system still effecting the story now (illustrated in the Doctor's Rose emo that's etted him alive and the return of Jack). However, this may be a system on the verge of death or at least overtaken by a newly emerging system.

Monad = Lazarus machine (which I believe will play a crucial role in the finale)
Sophia = Martha (or Martha Reborn)
Demiurge = The Master (he'd been emerging gradually the whole ep by aide of various sources, but one could say the final catalyst was Martha pointing out and questioning the watch. It's what the newly awakened Master gripes at Chantho - Martha's parallel - for not doing. Martha as the force that awakens the sleeper as she did John Smith and thus also Professor Yana)
Christ = The Doctor
Holy Spirit = Face of Boe

Which brings up a really troubling prospect -- the rumors that Jack is somehow in league with the Master... I absolutely adore Jack and I dread hearing any evil of him! But the parallels here are so unbelievably clear...

I have been worried Jack may have had some dealings in the Time War in some way which the Doctor erased from his mind. Jack is apparently the only other one in Bad Wolf/POTW - and since - that knows what the Dalek ships look like apart from the Doctor and the Daleks themselves.

[darenothope.livejournal.com]

Well, apparently she's getting in some acting classes before she does her guest stint. I wouldn't mind it if it was just a cameo but I suppose if they have her on the show they might use her properly.

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

I think they will. She'll probably be a queen of something who helps the Doctor out.

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I have felt ever since he casually said 'no, I don't think so' to Martha, being that they didn't really need to have her say that and have him reply like that (unless they really just want him to come across as casually cruel to her at every occasion when they could actually bond) that it would come back as a case in point.

I still have a strong feeling that he was wrong on both counts.

As she says in her journal:

We all get scared. We all get upset. We all need comforting. And, sometimes, you have to be the grown-up. Sometimes, you have to be the Doctor.

And she's wearing his colours (red, blue) in the finale it seems. The only thing I'm curious about is her appearing to be working with UNIT. UNIT must not trust Saxon and his extraterrestrial friends. Interesting.

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

You know I wanted to sum the critical Martha plot up in two words, I'd be inclined to say: dark phoenix. But I'm sure what actually happens onscreen will go another way entirely.

Still, how cool is it that one show has all these great possiblities? I'll be glad when s3 is over and yet there will be a sucking void where it once lived on Saturdays.

[darenothope.livejournal.com]

I keep imagining her as an alien queen or something.

[darenothope.livejournal.com]

I keep imagining her as an alien queen or something.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

The Demiurge=Master thing is ok on the face of it, except for the really in-your-face way the Doctor's just been telling us how wrong Jack is and how he just shouldn't exist. And since Rose created him as a result of her imperfect godhood, I have to go with her as Sophia.

There must be two parallel emergences going on -- maybe the whole watch emergence is another vein of the same thing, producing the Master as demiurge and Martha as Sophia thing. Except that the Doctor also emerged from a watch and...

Oh, now my brain hurts.

FoB as Holy Spirit is good, but I've been thinking of him as God the father and/or Old Testament god since Gridlock.

I guess it's time to stop looking for crystal clear parallels...

[eido.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I have felt ever since he casually said 'no, I don't think so' to Martha, being that they didn't really need to have her say that and have him reply like that (unless they really just want him to come across as casually cruel to her at every occasion when they could actually bond) that it would come back as a case in point.

Really, it just seemed a little too casually cruel, didn't it? Granted, it functioned as catalyst to get her annoyed thus push him into a much needed talk about Gallifrey and those issues. However... it just struck me as a bit much. That tends to automatically set that placemark of Remember This For Later in my head.

I still have a strong feeling that he was wrong on both counts.

Then of course you got them both trapped in the Lazarus blender in TLE. I can't imagine I was the only one that thought - apart from white TARDIS - of "The Fly" when looking at that thing. We all know what happened in that story. Then there's the none-too-subtle Frankenstein connotations in DIM/EOTD (the horrible experiments, lightning giving life, the metal beds with the inanimate husks on them covered in white sheets... it was practically straight from James Whale spliced with Kenneth Branagh). Martha as Bride of Frankenstein The Doctor? Ironic that would be considering one of the points being made this season seems to be the Doctor is the Doctor, but he's also the Monster. The one who saves and the one who destroys.

And she's wearing his colours (red, blue) in the finale it seems.

Any bets on the Doctor back in the blue suit / red tie & Chucks by the finale?

The only thing I'm curious about is her appearing to be working with UNIT. UNIT must not trust Saxon and his extraterrestrial friends.

By the looks of things, UNIT seems to have been taken over by the Americans, even if it's a UN thing (I could imagine the UK gov't might have sekritly pushed UNIT out in favor of TW). Of course if the president / UNIT commanders are amongst those Saxon gases in TSofD? Yeah, I can't imagine that would make UNIT too happy. Martha + UNIT could be aligning against a common enemy (also gives her opportunity to flirt a bit with some hot SAS/Special Ops boys, I'm calling a new Riley somewhere in TSofD or TLotTL). It's also possible the Doctor orders Martha to stay with UNIT (who he trusts as opposed to Torchwood, even if Jack is at the helm), while he gallivants off muy macho like the Lone Ranger and confronts Saxon doing manly Doctor stuff. If that's the case, Martha probably will stick with being babysat by UNIT early on TLotTL, but then the Doctor / her family gets in trouble and she says frak it all then goes off alone to the rescue. With or without UNIT support. Heroes, after all, always come to that point they must stand alone.

[eido.livejournal.com]

You know I wanted to sum the critical Martha plot up in two words, I'd be inclined to say: dark phoenix. But I'm sure what actually happens onscreen will go another way entirely.

Yikes, Dark Phoenix, really? Of course, that could tie into the "burn with me" thing (in a frightening way). But like Phoenix (and the mythological connection), who dies - burned out by the power - and rises from the ashes. Although Martha seems more set-up as the one to release that terrible power (probably being held by the Master and/or the Doctor - crazy, vengeful Time Lords), not embrace it. Then again, I remember her roar in "42" so I'm not ready to take it out of the realm of possibilities just yet.

[juanitadark.livejournal.com]

She probably is just set up to release it. But it would be shame that it would end that way (to me anyway). Although given RTDs Rose-fetish that's probably exactly what we'll get :(

However, I'm still curious to see how the Adeola reveal ties in with all this.

[eido.livejournal.com]

The Demiurge=Master thing is ok on the face of it, except for the really in-your-face way the Doctor's just been telling us how wrong Jack is and how he just shouldn't exist.

Unless that was diversionary somehow. The Doctor does seem to have made some kind of peace with Jack's state, but yeah, I totally see what you mean about how in your face

But then one could also make a pretty good argument of how Bad Wolf herself may be the Demiurge with that "I create myself" line. Fixing the world in the image she saw fit, like the Demiurge (despite it's evil connotation, it's also a creator being that attempted to make it's own Heaven on Earth believing, wrongly, it was the only true god. The Bad Wolf as a false god... one that Doctor can't seem to stop worshipping). However, also planting that Divine Spark inherited from Sophia (TARDIS?) in it's creations, thus giving those creations the capacity for divinity depending on their path in life (the capacity to embrace that Divine Spark).

I've also sometimes wondered (back since TLE and the Eliot refs) (http://eido.livejournal.com/83930.html#cutid1) if the Rose mentions aren't so much about the character herself, but the general symbolism of the rose. Roses - especially in Eliot's work - symbolize divine love and mercy. Something the Doctor lacks, which Martha may have to compensate for and "stop him" (with love and mercy). It may seem like a more orthodox Christian concept (Eliot himself was a Christian, which showed up frequently in his work), but as Rusty leans more heavily to Gnostic overall themes? Between Eliot and The Last Temptation of Christ? It's like Rusty is using these Christian works (and hymns) from Christian authors, reshaping them to tell his own (heavily Gnostic-leaning) storyline. I'm almost counting down the minutes before we get some Narnia (C.S. Lewis) homage told by way of the Nag Hammadi Library.

There must be two parallel emergences going on -- maybe the whole watch emergence is another vein of the same thing, producing the Master as demiurge and Martha as Sophia thing. Except that the Doctor also emerged from a watch and...

Oh, now my brain hurts.

If you want to get really brain-twisty with it, I posted once (can't remember where unfortunately, someone's private LJ I think?) that as John Smith was a none-too-subtle homage to Jesus Christ from The Last Temptation of Christ (a novel which, despite appearances, is about the typical Christian, orthodox, ascetic image of Jesus Christ. The one who would forego an Earthly life including marriage & children with Mary Magdalene to sacrifice himself to save the world). Then you have the Doctor who seems to be Rusty's equivalent of Gnostic Christ (the one who has had many a female & male companion - allbeit tends not to cross certain lines. However Rusty's Who is more romantic/sexually overt than anything from old skool. His Doctor also has openly admitted to having children and been married. So it's a Christ image, but one that doesn't shrug off the romantic/sexually suggestive counterpart or things that would normally be constituted to "Earthly" or "human" life). So John Smith vs. the Doctor = Orthodox Christian Christ vs Gnostic Christ.

By Martha - the Doctor's current (hot, sexually overt, female) human companion - waking up John Smith? It's almost an affirmation of those Gnostic symbols Rusty loves everso much (and an affirmation of those symbols over those of the more orthodox views in the death of John Smith). However, the Doctor is also currently an image of Gnostic Christ who has lost his way... who's been blinded and left to wander in the Wilderness as you mentioned before (trapped in the belly of the Bad Wolf, a false god?). He can't move on, he can't wake up.... thus enter Martha Jones, the one designated to awaken the sleeper(s) and hasn't only done it once, but twice now.

[eido.livejournal.com]

Although here's a disturbing scenario for you (which I brought up to parrotfish in the other thread), but what if Martha (or the Doctor or the Master) does in fact go Dark Phoenix (possibly due to genetically manipulation by Saxon)... and they don't end up saving the Earth? The finale ends with the Earth exploding, everyone dying (maybe except the Master, Jack and the Doctor staring out in horror at it all) and a "To Be Continued"?

Martha's true goddess moment may come from sending the Doctor (perhaps not before some Goddess!Martha/Doctor talk in a big white room or something... akin to Morpheus explaining the Matrix to Neo or the Architect/Neo's confrontation) or his essence/whatever back in time to when things changed (for the worse) for humanity leading to that apocalyptic end? When Ten deposed Harriet Jones - killing her Golden Age - and thus leaving it open for Saxon to take power. Of course, if the timeline is so dramatically changed, that could mean everything that happened in S2 and S3 doesn't happen or they happen anyway, just in different ways they did the first time around. Torchwood is still created, thus Harriet Jones uses the weapon to destroy the Sycorax, Cybermen/Daleks invade, Adeola dies, Rose ends up in another dimension... and eventually the Doctor meets Martha again (but as he still has the memories of that other timeline, he's not overwhelmed by his emo and she can be a real companion not held away at arm's length by him). Although she may or may not still be available to him (Martha had no personal attachments that held her back being his companion... she may have them the next they meet). It would be interesting Ten - finally - displaying jealousy for once if Martha had a boyfriend/fiance/husband Ten had to compete with for her companionship.