Redeeming Tom Riddle
May. 6th, 2005 08:19 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
retro_eidasSince my friends are taking their own sweet time on the beverage run and I'm bored as hell with HP on my mind, I'm borrowing a computer. I actually just posted this on HPfGU responding to someone else (hoping they don't mind I'm reposting on my LJ due to severe LJ withdrawal) and it turned into a much longer rambling than I intended, but as I said, I have HP on the mind.
I don't know how I'm going to last without internet with all this crap floating around in my head. I may have to be borrowing much more often (or suffer the wrath of AOHell).
I agree with the statement above. Actually, I think that may be the purpose of the prophecy, at least partly. What better way to "vanquish" a *Dark* Lord than to remove his darkness? Something that would be rather amusing to me that so many out there are near obsessed pondering who 'Harry' will end up with... when it might not be about 'Harry's' lovelife at all. But Tom Riddle's.
Although, *how* would Tom be redeemed if that is one of the intentions of the storyline? My guess is that Tom, through Harry (that piece of Tom inside of Harry), would have to experience that thing which the "Dark Lord knows not" (as DD says, "has none at all"). In essence, give Tom what he apparently didn't have or "know"
before.
If that thing is Love as popularly speculated, then, Tom would have to experience (or "know") love. But how? Or from whom?
It's possible we could learn more about background of Tom's family (most likely, his mother's background)... something that Dumbledore could be showing Harry first hand in that Pensieve (Slytherin Family pensieve possibly? Could it have Riddle's mother's memories in it?).
Thus showing Tom that he was very loved. Although Tom may have realized his mother loved him, he never had the chance to experience it from what we understand. She died when he was born (of course, I have a whole conspiracy theory that his mother had been murdered... and by members of that "true family" he mentions in GOF, but that's o/t).
Tom believed his mother loved a man far unworthy of her. Considering what apparently happened, what can't wholly blame Tom for his bitterness. Not only for the fact she was a pureblood witch, but also Riddle Sr. wasn't much of a husband or even human being in general it seems. Something I could understand Tom grew exceedingly bitter over (and this bitterness probably aggravated by a dark mentor or mentors. Fuelling his bigotry). I believe this is what was one of the earlier catalysts of Tom denegrating human emotions (weaknesses), moreso Love. Love is what made Tom's mother fall prey to an apparent libertine, love blinded her to his "filthy" muggleness. Thus, Tom likely vowed to never succumb to such weakness ("There is only power and those too weak to seek it").
Of course, Love seems to be 'the power', possibly the greatest power ("More wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature..."). "The one with 'the power'..."
But this 'new' Tom, the one reborn in Harry Potter... he's "weak" (as the old Tom would put it). Or at least, he has the opportunity this time around to be "weak". This 'weakness' would/will make Tom more powerful than he ever was as Voldemort (and we know how 'power-hungry' Tom always was).
...."but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not"
This could be splitting hairs, simply "knowing" love (regardless of who it's directed at) certainly could be more than enough, but I just think it would be JKR's sort of irony that besides falling in love, JKR may push the irony further and have Tom do what he'd once castigated his mother for. Fall in love with someone 'unworthy' (my
guess it would be a non-pureblood, but Ginny being one of the "blood traitor" Weasleys could probably work as well).
Perhaps this is too simplistic (and cheeky, but JKR is a cheeky one, isn't she?), JKR being an admitted Christian... I wouldn't be surprised she's not unfamiliar with the concept of "knowing" someone as it's eluded in the Bible.
For example, confused about the angel Gabriel's statement saying she shall be the Virgin mother of Christ, Mary says....
How shall this be, seeing I **know not** a man? (Luke 1:34)
There are many other examples of this interpretation of "know" in the Bible.
Perhaps "knows" as it is in the prophecy is a bit of a double entendre? It's describing the "Dark Lord" never experiencing love.... but also never having the opportunity to *literally* experience it? Voldemort was never in love, never married and hence never experienced the act of love with the other sex (as Christian doctrine would dictate, the Dark Lord never "knew" anyone). Is "knows" a clue from JKR? I'm not suggesting JKR will ever bring sex or even marriage sex (at least not directly) into the HP books ... but perhaps she's telling us, in order for Harry (Tom) to fulfill the prophecy, he (Tom) needs to love someone of the opposite sex (enough to be marriagable material, thus able to "know" her and eventually "be fruitful and multiply")? As progressive as HP and JKR are, I don't think she will bring in a homosexual relationship... so, in this case, the love would have to be a 'her'.
Could the prophecy be indirectly including this elusive 'her', this Bride, someone for Tom Riddle to "know"?
In general regards to marriage, as I'm sure you're aware, 'to give one's hand' to someone, means to offer the person to be married (Usually the parents offer the hand of their daughter, the bride, to the bridegroom). The bride and bridegroom also offer their hands to each other to bear the rings. Could this "the hand of the other" also be connected to "knows"?
"Either must die at *the hand of the other* for neither can live while the other survives."
Could the prophecy, literally, be describing marriage and this marriage-love as the 'vanquisher' of the Dark Lord's darkness? Alchemical marriage and otherwise? Voldemort already experienced at least one marriage, but an abnormal one (the resurrection ritual at the end of GOF. A marriage with no bride). Thus in order
to 'vanquish' darkness, Tom Riddle needs to be 'married' (or at least, experiences the love of a bridegroom) and/or have a 'bride' in order to 'vanquish' his shadow, Voldemort? Vanquishing the darkness of the Dark Lord, all you'd have left is Lord. 'Expecto Patronum' indeed.
Of course, that line of the prophecy ("neither can live while the other survives") makes it sound like the bride and bridegroom may have to kill each other ('neither can live while the other survives'). Which doesn't seem to hold true with a marriage metaphor, unless it was a dramatic ending a la "Romeo and Juliet". Of course, marriage vows are usually "till death do us part". In essence, death = the dissolve of a marriage, vice versa?
There's also this line in the Bible that intrigues me (both about marriage, marriage partners and death):
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:17)
Perhaps JKR's prophecy is stating that once Harry (or Tom) and his "Eve" "eat from the tree of knowledge", he and "Eve" will "die". Cast out of the Garden, lose their immortality? But what is the "Garden" of HP? The Wizarding World? I could perceive
Harry/Tom, after learning the entire truth ("knowledge of good and evil") of the Wizarding World, may voluntarily choose to leave it along with his Bride. Then again, crossing into the Underworld has been symbolised numerous times throughout the series. Perhaps Harry (Tom) and "Eve" will cross-over ("die", in a sense), but return to the land of the Mortal (Leave the land of immortality, aka the Garden
aka Paradise, and return to the place where people can die).
Meandering insanity I realize, but I had to get at least one long HP-related LJ hit in the month or I probably would burst.
I don't know how I'm going to last without internet with all this crap floating around in my head. I may have to be borrowing much more often (or suffer the wrath of AOHell).
Tonks:
The Christian message is a
universal message of Love in its highest form, for everyone,
everywhere. Even Tom Riddle can be redeemed, because the God of
Love cares even for him. I think that DD cares for Tom too. DD
doesn't like what Tom has become and the things that Tom has done,
but in his heart DD cares for Tom too. That is part of why I think
he calls him Tom.
I agree with the statement above. Actually, I think that may be the purpose of the prophecy, at least partly. What better way to "vanquish" a *Dark* Lord than to remove his darkness? Something that would be rather amusing to me that so many out there are near obsessed pondering who 'Harry' will end up with... when it might not be about 'Harry's' lovelife at all. But Tom Riddle's.
Although, *how* would Tom be redeemed if that is one of the intentions of the storyline? My guess is that Tom, through Harry (that piece of Tom inside of Harry), would have to experience that thing which the "Dark Lord knows not" (as DD says, "has none at all"). In essence, give Tom what he apparently didn't have or "know"
before.
If that thing is Love as popularly speculated, then, Tom would have to experience (or "know") love. But how? Or from whom?
It's possible we could learn more about background of Tom's family (most likely, his mother's background)... something that Dumbledore could be showing Harry first hand in that Pensieve (Slytherin Family pensieve possibly? Could it have Riddle's mother's memories in it?).
Thus showing Tom that he was very loved. Although Tom may have realized his mother loved him, he never had the chance to experience it from what we understand. She died when he was born (of course, I have a whole conspiracy theory that his mother had been murdered... and by members of that "true family" he mentions in GOF, but that's o/t).
Tom believed his mother loved a man far unworthy of her. Considering what apparently happened, what can't wholly blame Tom for his bitterness. Not only for the fact she was a pureblood witch, but also Riddle Sr. wasn't much of a husband or even human being in general it seems. Something I could understand Tom grew exceedingly bitter over (and this bitterness probably aggravated by a dark mentor or mentors. Fuelling his bigotry). I believe this is what was one of the earlier catalysts of Tom denegrating human emotions (weaknesses), moreso Love. Love is what made Tom's mother fall prey to an apparent libertine, love blinded her to his "filthy" muggleness. Thus, Tom likely vowed to never succumb to such weakness ("There is only power and those too weak to seek it").
Of course, Love seems to be 'the power', possibly the greatest power ("More wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature..."). "The one with 'the power'..."
But this 'new' Tom, the one reborn in Harry Potter... he's "weak" (as the old Tom would put it). Or at least, he has the opportunity this time around to be "weak". This 'weakness' would/will make Tom more powerful than he ever was as Voldemort (and we know how 'power-hungry' Tom always was).
...."but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not"
This could be splitting hairs, simply "knowing" love (regardless of who it's directed at) certainly could be more than enough, but I just think it would be JKR's sort of irony that besides falling in love, JKR may push the irony further and have Tom do what he'd once castigated his mother for. Fall in love with someone 'unworthy' (my
guess it would be a non-pureblood, but Ginny being one of the "blood traitor" Weasleys could probably work as well).
Perhaps this is too simplistic (and cheeky, but JKR is a cheeky one, isn't she?), JKR being an admitted Christian... I wouldn't be surprised she's not unfamiliar with the concept of "knowing" someone as it's eluded in the Bible.
For example, confused about the angel Gabriel's statement saying she shall be the Virgin mother of Christ, Mary says....
How shall this be, seeing I **know not** a man? (Luke 1:34)
There are many other examples of this interpretation of "know" in the Bible.
Perhaps "knows" as it is in the prophecy is a bit of a double entendre? It's describing the "Dark Lord" never experiencing love.... but also never having the opportunity to *literally* experience it? Voldemort was never in love, never married and hence never experienced the act of love with the other sex (as Christian doctrine would dictate, the Dark Lord never "knew" anyone). Is "knows" a clue from JKR? I'm not suggesting JKR will ever bring sex or even marriage sex (at least not directly) into the HP books ... but perhaps she's telling us, in order for Harry (Tom) to fulfill the prophecy, he (Tom) needs to love someone of the opposite sex (enough to be marriagable material, thus able to "know" her and eventually "be fruitful and multiply")? As progressive as HP and JKR are, I don't think she will bring in a homosexual relationship... so, in this case, the love would have to be a 'her'.
Could the prophecy be indirectly including this elusive 'her', this Bride, someone for Tom Riddle to "know"?
In general regards to marriage, as I'm sure you're aware, 'to give one's hand' to someone, means to offer the person to be married (Usually the parents offer the hand of their daughter, the bride, to the bridegroom). The bride and bridegroom also offer their hands to each other to bear the rings. Could this "the hand of the other" also be connected to "knows"?
"Either must die at *the hand of the other* for neither can live while the other survives."
Could the prophecy, literally, be describing marriage and this marriage-love as the 'vanquisher' of the Dark Lord's darkness? Alchemical marriage and otherwise? Voldemort already experienced at least one marriage, but an abnormal one (the resurrection ritual at the end of GOF. A marriage with no bride). Thus in order
to 'vanquish' darkness, Tom Riddle needs to be 'married' (or at least, experiences the love of a bridegroom) and/or have a 'bride' in order to 'vanquish' his shadow, Voldemort? Vanquishing the darkness of the Dark Lord, all you'd have left is Lord. 'Expecto Patronum' indeed.
Of course, that line of the prophecy ("neither can live while the other survives") makes it sound like the bride and bridegroom may have to kill each other ('neither can live while the other survives'). Which doesn't seem to hold true with a marriage metaphor, unless it was a dramatic ending a la "Romeo and Juliet". Of course, marriage vows are usually "till death do us part". In essence, death = the dissolve of a marriage, vice versa?
There's also this line in the Bible that intrigues me (both about marriage, marriage partners and death):
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:17)
Perhaps JKR's prophecy is stating that once Harry (or Tom) and his "Eve" "eat from the tree of knowledge", he and "Eve" will "die". Cast out of the Garden, lose their immortality? But what is the "Garden" of HP? The Wizarding World? I could perceive
Harry/Tom, after learning the entire truth ("knowledge of good and evil") of the Wizarding World, may voluntarily choose to leave it along with his Bride. Then again, crossing into the Underworld has been symbolised numerous times throughout the series. Perhaps Harry (Tom) and "Eve" will cross-over ("die", in a sense), but return to the land of the Mortal (Leave the land of immortality, aka the Garden
aka Paradise, and return to the place where people can die).
Meandering insanity I realize, but I had to get at least one long HP-related LJ hit in the month or I probably would burst.
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no subject
Date: 2005-05-07 02:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-07 03:43 am (UTC)And if anyone has the capacity for the shades of Eros (at least what we the reader would be previed) probably would come from Harry's bit o' Tom Riddle... and Harry will just be as schizophrenic about those thoughts as he'd been about Prefect!Ron. Moreso if those Eros thoughts are about Hermione, at once a very platonic friend, but also an object of erised. Teenage angst city.
To be redundant, here are Harry's schizo Prefect!Ron thoughts, could you imagine this same scenario but involving "Eros"? It probably would come off a little on the scary side. Take note before this line, Harry is having his own little mental conversation with himself. The whole scene has this looming vibe of crazy.
OOTP, ch. 9, pg. 167
"No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect ..."
Harry gave a small snort of laughter. A second later he felt sickened with himself.
Quite hot and cold that is. We were given no indication Harry really wanted to be prefect prior that scene... so, I'd say, Harry wasn't reacting there, it was Tom. Tom would have definitely expected to be prefect (and Head Boy). Although we already know the boy was tenacious while he was at Hogwarts... this same tenacity put towards less sociopathic paths could prove to fulfill the prophecy... but be less than stellar for those in 'Tom's' way. At the same time, however, I do think Harry would avoid hurting someone he cared about as much as he could, but the Serpent may be too strong a presence in Harry by that time to resist. In other words, Tom may overpower Harry and god help any of those who stand in his way.
In my love of angst and turmoil, that would be deliciously FUBAR. ;) On one side, we have the "great ruddy Serpent" Tom lusting after Hermione and Harry the Chaste being disturbed by these impure thoughts of his everso platonic best friend.
Hermione, incidentally, is also currently one of the only of Harry's peers who can say "Voldemort". Tempting the serpent is she?
However, when it comes to 'Eros', JKR may push it to a certain point, but it's still going to be relatively tame.
Also feel I need to clarify, but when I say "marriage" above, I don't mean literal marriage or weddings, but strictly symbolic. More specifically, alchemical marriage (http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com/symbols/characters.php#hermione) (from a Rosicrucian perspective that is). I don't think we'll see Harry actually married (unless he survives and the epilogue delves into his latter life, which I wouldn't doubt, but in any case, no literal weddings).
I also think Harry will have some kind of "underworld" crossing, perhaps in the Department of Mysteries.
Or Nick helps out in that regard, maybe during another Deathday Party.
Structurally I think it makes sense for the battle to take place around the same time of year that Voldemort killed James and Lily- when the Veil between the two worlds is at its thinnest...
Unless the Founders storyline ties in somehow (I still think there's going to be some big parallel revealed, probably in bk7), but Halloween certainly could play a huge part again. Probably like you spec, in the final showdown.
no subject
Date: 2005-05-07 08:55 am (UTC)~Diana
no subject
Date: 2005-05-07 02:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-26 08:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-26 08:58 pm (UTC)This might sound a bit on the crazy side, but there is a bit of a hermaphroditic quality between Harry and Hermione, isn't there? Their initials, the way they seem to read each others' minds. There are a couple of phrases in OOTP (and beforehand, but I'm too lazy to check) where they're described as doing something instinctually together (or as one). H/Hr as the hermaphrodite doesn't necessarily point to a romantic relationship... but it wouldn't exclude it either.
And here's a bit more insanity, but I've been chit-chatting with an HP friend of mine and we've been kicking around the idea of what happened to Harry and Voldemort on Halloween 1981 happening again sometime in HBP or book 7, but to someone else (or two other people, as the case is). As a way for JKR to explain/illustrate the nature of Tom Riddle's habitation in Harry and how/why it happened. We were toying with the idea of Hermione and Ginny getting spliced a la Harry/Tom.
no subject
Date: 2005-05-26 09:09 pm (UTC)As for the instinctually thing, I think some people are just so well attuned to each other that they *can* do stuff like that. When I was young (like a kid and teenager) I was so close to my sister P (2 years younger than me) that we used to be able to finish each other's sentences.